Wrong. The process of natural selection easily explains, in scientific terms, how eyes and other marvelously intricate and well-suited devices have evolved over millions of years. As for how it all began, well that is the big mystery, but if everything was created by God, then who created God??

I also would love to believe that Christians do good deeds because they care about other human beings, rather than to please God and get a good spot in heaven.

Thoughtfulness and empathy—with or without a religious context—is something special and inherently good.

I’d be happy to engage in dialogue that emphasizes sharing our viewpoints/conclusions openly but without the thought of converting anyone. I’m really not sure whether this forum or a private dialogue would be best, but my e-mail addreess is wanakena@alltel.net, so I’ll watch both venues.

Your story of the painter and creation is as nice a way of putting the idea as I have encountered. Nonetheless, like so much of the ever popular C.S. Lewis, it is arguement by analogy, which, while very useful, is also relatively weak; it is not “evidence.” However put, the creation being evidence of a creator is standard fare, so I’ll finish for now by asking the standard response. Who created the creator?

Shalom,

Jim

Thank you for sharing your Christian background with me. Your comments were not taken as insulting.

I replied to your question to see if you would be open to a peaceful, non-argumentative discussion regarding Christianity. I am interested in only reasoning together and sharing ideas.

I have never shared my faith with some one who is agnostic/atheistic. Please consider this invitation and I respect your decision.

If you agree, I am open to giving you my email address or discussing my position in this forum.

I will leave you with this….

One day you are walking through your acreage and you see a painting hanging on a tree. How do you know there was a painter who created the painting? The painting is the evidence that the painter exists. You can’t see, touch, smell, hear or taste him, but you know he exists because the painting exists. The same is true when looking at a building (building/builder).

I come to the knowledge of the Creator because creation is the evidence. I can’t help but look in awe and wonder at God’s beutiful gifts to us in the stars, sun, clouds, wind, beautiful sunsets, trees, grass, rocks, flowers, bees, dogs, cats, humans, etc. For me, creation is the evidence of intelligent design.

Peace,

Rod

I did have a very peaceful and happy Christmas, thank you.

I grew up in a “Christian home” where both parents expressed a belief in God but had been turned off by organized religion. Through dear friends I accepted the Roman Catholic church and was a believer and church goer for 50+ years. However, I was always a bit of a rebel and my wife and I honestly think we “drove” one very conservative priest from our parish over 30 years ago (not the place we live now).

The more I observed the Catholic Church, then all of Christendom, then Islam and Judaism, then other of the world’s great religions, I came to realize (1) they were a force for violence and tyrany, and (2) they made no rational sense. The violence of the Bible, its many contradictions, the scholarship on its authors and origins, etc. all convinced me that it is the greatest story ever sold by those out to keep mind control and money control of the masses. The other holy books are no better, maybe even worse. I am an avid reader of all of these issues. Ultimitely I became an agnostic, then one with a leaning towards atheism. By defintion, I supose I am a “weak atheist.”

At the same time, the pure, unadulterated message of Jesus may yet be of the greatest value, once stripped of all the accumulated trappings (see Thomas Jefferson and John Adams). But I do not have to believe in Jesus’ divinity to see value in his message.

The spiritual things I believe in do not rise from the supernatural but from the awe and wonder of life and our world.

Hope this helps, and that it does not appear insulting. I don’t mean it to be, but you asked.

Peace,

Jim

I hope you had a peaceful Christmas. I believe all good things come from the God of the Bible. In Nahum 1:7, scripture says, “The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knows them that trust in him.” The Christmas story is “wonderful”, “warm”, and “comforting” in that God gives us the good news of the gospel. It was His goodness that provided Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross. You seem to be open to spiritual things and I would be interested in knowing more about your Christian background. I hope you will respond.

Prayerfully,

Rod