Comments on: Bad Santa http://www.theatheistmama.com/2006/10/bad-santa.html An atheist woman, mother, wife, Ohioan and American citizen blogs. Tue, 06 Jan 2009 02:58:44 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.3 by: Jennifer http://www.theatheistmama.com/2006/10/bad-santa.html#comment-3620 Thu, 21 Dec 2006 17:08:38 +0000 http://www.theatheistmama.com/2006/10/bad-santa.html#comment-3620 Santa is bigger than religion, he's now a commercialized icon that represents material excess. I think its important to provide a good balance to your kids, they will be bombarded by his image and what he represents in THIS society. It sure as hell ain't religion anymore, and we need to counterbalance it with facts. You should check out his origins, he has nothing to do with religion. The church made that connection, you can make a different one. You are afterall, the parent. My kids will get a few nice things under the tree and a stocking full of goodies, but the religious aspect will remain untouched as we beleive that organized religion does more harm than good. We do however, beleive in letting magic live in our kids for as long as possible. This is a harsh world and the longer she can beleive in fairies, unicorns and Santa, the better. I don't see any harm in it. One day, when she starts asking serious questions, we will go over the origins of Santa, and how he became linked to a religious event because the church wanted an easy way out to convert all those nasty pagans. Then, I may rant and rave a bit about organized religion and how it has destroyed cultures, surpressed women, controlled economies, started wars........by then I'm sure she will be bored and move onto something else. Or the husband will drag me out of the room....LOL! Great blog, will have to visit again, I came here via Raistlins Ghost. Santa is bigger than religion, he’s now a commercialized icon that represents material excess. I think its important to provide a good balance to your kids, they will be bombarded by his image and what he represents in THIS society. It sure as hell ain’t religion anymore, and we need to counterbalance it with facts. You should check out his origins, he has nothing to do with religion. The church made that connection, you can make a different one. You are afterall, the parent.

My kids will get a few nice things under the tree and a stocking full of goodies, but the religious aspect will remain untouched as we beleive that organized religion does more harm than good. We do however, beleive in letting magic live in our kids for as long as possible. This is a harsh world and the longer she can beleive in fairies, unicorns and Santa, the better. I don’t see any harm in it. One day, when she starts asking serious questions, we will go over the origins of Santa, and how he became linked to a religious event because the church wanted an easy way out to convert all those nasty pagans. Then, I may rant and rave a bit about organized religion and how it has destroyed cultures, surpressed women, controlled economies, started wars……..by then I’m sure she will be bored and move onto something else. Or the husband will drag me out of the room….LOL!

Great blog, will have to visit again, I came here via Raistlins Ghost.

]]> by: new.atheist http://www.theatheistmama.com/2006/10/bad-santa.html#comment-2673 Tue, 21 Nov 2006 21:34:45 +0000 http://www.theatheistmama.com/2006/10/bad-santa.html#comment-2673 I was taught to Believe in Santa as a child. I don't think it did anything decremental to my childhood mind. (Ok, maybe it was a little, I was SCARED TO DEATH of Santa, there are zero pics of me on his lap cuz I would burst into tears after my parents waited with me for an hour in line, but I'm more afraid of clowns today than Santas.) My parents eventually explained that Santa was really the spirit in everyone at Christmas. But I think that was kinda where my belief in a god started to slip up too... then what if god was really just the goodness in everyone? I don't think that was bad though; I started questioning what I was told. I think there's quite a few good lessons to learn from Santa, the Easter Bunny, & the Tooth fairy; we learn our parent's aren't always right, we learn that just because everyone else believes in it doesn't make it true, and we learn that we don't need to believe in magic, we need to believe in people & that real happiness comes from the kindness of the human spirit. I was taught to Believe in Santa as a child. I don’t think it did anything decremental to my childhood mind. (Ok, maybe it was a little, I was SCARED TO DEATH of Santa, there are zero pics of me on his lap cuz I would burst into tears after my parents waited with me for an hour in line, but I’m more afraid of clowns today than Santas.)

My parents eventually explained that Santa was really the spirit in everyone at Christmas.

But I think that was kinda where my belief in a god started to slip up too… then what if god was really just the goodness in everyone? I don’t think that was bad though; I started questioning what I was told. I think there’s quite a few good lessons to learn from Santa, the Easter Bunny, & the Tooth fairy; we learn our parent’s aren’t always right, we learn that just because everyone else believes in it doesn’t make it true, and we learn that we don’t need to believe in magic, we need to believe in people & that real happiness comes from the kindness of the human spirit.

]]> by: jan andrea http://www.theatheistmama.com/2006/10/bad-santa.html#comment-2229 Fri, 10 Nov 2006 18:40:27 +0000 http://www.theatheistmama.com/2006/10/bad-santa.html#comment-2229 Until my son (now 6) was three, I really went back and forth about Santa. My mother was appalled to think we might not "do" Santa -- she's as rabid an atheist as one could hope to meet, but she really feels that Santa makes the holiday more magical for children, and on the whole, that it's harmless. I disliked the mere idea of lying to my kids, though. In the end, we bowed to peer pressure (yeah, I know, I know), and Stephen really enjoys believing in Santa, for now. I think that learning that Santa is a story parents tell their children will help inoculate him against religion later -- he'll have a direct comparison. People tell their children about Santa because it's nice to think there's someone out there who just gives and gives, expecting nothing but a cookie and a glass of milk in return; just as people believe in a god because it's nice to think that the universe has a point. Neither are really true, but that doesn't change the fact that it's nice to give without expecting to receive, or that you can make your own meaning in the universe. Until my son (now 6) was three, I really went back and forth about Santa. My mother was appalled to think we might not “do” Santa — she’s as rabid an atheist as one could hope to meet, but she really feels that Santa makes the holiday more magical for children, and on the whole, that it’s harmless. I disliked the mere idea of lying to my kids, though. In the end, we bowed to peer pressure (yeah, I know, I know), and Stephen really enjoys believing in Santa, for now. I think that learning that Santa is a story parents tell their children will help inoculate him against religion later — he’ll have a direct comparison. People tell their children about Santa because it’s nice to think there’s someone out there who just gives and gives, expecting nothing but a cookie and a glass of milk in return; just as people believe in a god because it’s nice to think that the universe has a point. Neither are really true, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s nice to give without expecting to receive, or that you can make your own meaning in the universe.

]]> by: CJ http://www.theatheistmama.com/2006/10/bad-santa.html#comment-2054 Sun, 05 Nov 2006 06:04:44 +0000 http://www.theatheistmama.com/2006/10/bad-santa.html#comment-2054 I think you'll end up dealing with the angry/disturbed parents soon enough at school over the god thing, so might as well start with Santa. My older son was already getting into discussions about god and angels by 1st grade. I taught him to be polite about people believing in god and to be proud he does not. He has told me that other kids will actually GASP when he says he doesn't believe in god. I also armed him with the 'Which one?' response, because is does such a good job of flustering the kid asking. Sorry, digression. With Santa enough kids are not sure about it (come on, the idea is ridiculous!) that if amongst themselves one doesn't think it's real, the other kids can handle that. It may be a believer trying out the idea, even. I think that kids test out ideas like that a lot when adults aren't around. As an adult with Santa believers in the family I take advantage of not celebrating Christmas and just say I don't know since we don't celebrate it and all. Kinda lame, I know. I think you’ll end up dealing with the angry/disturbed parents soon enough at school over the god thing, so might as well start with Santa.

My older son was already getting into discussions about god and angels by 1st grade. I taught him to be polite about people believing in god and to be proud he does not. He has told me that other kids will actually GASP when he says he doesn’t believe in god. I also armed him with the ‘Which one?’ response, because is does such a good job of flustering the kid asking.

Sorry, digression. With Santa enough kids are not sure about it (come on, the idea is ridiculous!) that if amongst themselves one doesn’t think it’s real, the other kids can handle that. It may be a believer trying out the idea, even. I think that kids test out ideas like that a lot when adults aren’t around. As an adult with Santa believers in the family I take advantage of not celebrating Christmas and just say I don’t know since we don’t celebrate it and all. Kinda lame, I know.

]]> by: cassandra http://www.theatheistmama.com/2006/10/bad-santa.html#comment-2009 Fri, 03 Nov 2006 12:11:41 +0000 http://www.theatheistmama.com/2006/10/bad-santa.html#comment-2009 We made the "no-Santa" decision before my first was born. We haven't actually celebrated Xmas since then either. We do have a solstice celebration that includes gifts though. We don't have the Easter bunny or the tooth fairy. I just don't see the need for it all. I can see the fun side of it (yes, it was fun for me as a child), but there are other ways to create fun. It's just not necessary. But my oldest is just about getting to the age where he'll probably be talking about Santa this year. It'll be interesting... My biggest concern is him telling other children. I would rather he not go to school and tell all of the other kids that Santa isn't real. I can just see a big dad knocking at my door ready to fight. We made the “no-Santa” decision before my first was born. We haven’t actually celebrated Xmas since then either. We do have a solstice celebration that includes gifts though. We don’t have the Easter bunny or the tooth fairy. I just don’t see the need for it all. I can see the fun side of it (yes, it was fun for me as a child), but there are other ways to create fun. It’s just not necessary.
But my oldest is just about getting to the age where he’ll probably be talking about Santa this year. It’ll be interesting… My biggest concern is him telling other children. I would rather he not go to school and tell all of the other kids that Santa isn’t real. I can just see a big dad knocking at my door ready to fight.

]]> by: stardust http://www.theatheistmama.com/2006/10/bad-santa.html#comment-1912 Sun, 29 Oct 2006 22:20:49 +0000 http://www.theatheistmama.com/2006/10/bad-santa.html#comment-1912 <i>Allen wrote: I think the most compelling indictment against the Santa tradition is that it involves lying to your children. Not exaggerating, not embellishing, but outright lying. And it’s not like you have to tell just one lie only one time, either; once you start lying, you find yourself telling more and more lies to counter doubts and questions.</i> We taught our kids to believe in Santa when they were little and it was exactly like Allen says - one lie leads to another, then another, and another and the whole Santa lie turns into this huge ball of bizarreness and questions become impossible to answer without eventually getting caught in the "tangle web" we have woven! Contrary to our little Santa and Easter Bunny lies, my husband and I also taught our kids to always be honest and tell the truth. Teaching the Santa myth as truth didn't seem to harm them any, but once they found out we had fibbed they did bring the honesty issue to our attention and made us feel quite two-faced. Believing in the Santa myth is fun, and the Easter Bunny but if I had it to do over again I would tell them the story as it is...a legend, a story of folklore and tradition. Their imaginations can still let them fantasize about this mythological character, but we would have been more honest not to try to pass it off as reality. Allen wrote: I think the most compelling indictment against the Santa tradition is that it involves lying to your children. Not exaggerating, not embellishing, but outright lying. And it’s not like you have to tell just one lie only one time, either; once you start lying, you find yourself telling more and more lies to counter doubts and questions.

We taught our kids to believe in Santa when they were little and it was exactly like Allen says - one lie leads to another, then another, and another and the whole Santa lie turns into this huge ball of bizarreness and questions become impossible to answer without eventually getting caught in the “tangle web” we have woven!

Contrary to our little Santa and Easter Bunny lies, my husband and I also taught our kids to always be honest and tell the truth. Teaching the Santa myth as truth didn’t seem to harm them any, but once they found out we had fibbed they did bring the honesty issue to our attention and made us feel quite two-faced. Believing in the Santa myth is fun, and the Easter Bunny but if I had it to do over again I would tell them the story as it is…a legend, a story of folklore and tradition. Their imaginations can still let them fantasize about this mythological character, but we would have been more honest not to try to pass it off as reality.

]]> by: Vincenzo http://www.theatheistmama.com/2006/10/bad-santa.html#comment-1906 Sun, 29 Oct 2006 16:43:25 +0000 http://www.theatheistmama.com/2006/10/bad-santa.html#comment-1906 Saying "It's just a nice story" I just meant: "It's just mithology", a story, unreal. That's all. Saying “It’s just a nice story” I just meant: “It’s just mithology”, a story, unreal. That’s all.

]]> by: The Ridger http://www.theatheistmama.com/2006/10/bad-santa.html#comment-1883 Sat, 28 Oct 2006 16:19:21 +0000 http://www.theatheistmama.com/2006/10/bad-santa.html#comment-1883 I don't actually know anyone who saw Santa as a "huge betrayal" by their parents. On the other hand, I do know quite a few who see - and saw then - the whole Santa story as a direct parallel to God, and more easily lost their faith than they might have had they never experienced the Santa thing. Sort of like a dress rehearsal for leaving church. Santa might be a *good* thing for freethinkers - it's so obviously fake and yet so incredibly widespread. I don’t actually know anyone who saw Santa as a “huge betrayal” by their parents. On the other hand, I do know quite a few who see - and saw then - the whole Santa story as a direct parallel to God, and more easily lost their faith than they might have had they never experienced the Santa thing. Sort of like a dress rehearsal for leaving church. Santa might be a *good* thing for freethinkers - it’s so obviously fake and yet so incredibly widespread.

]]> by: Anne A http://www.theatheistmama.com/2006/10/bad-santa.html#comment-1876 Sat, 28 Oct 2006 06:38:51 +0000 http://www.theatheistmama.com/2006/10/bad-santa.html#comment-1876 Last year my 8 year-old he asked me directly if there really was a Santa or if it was really "just you and dad". I told him that of course his father and I give him gifts and that some people like to believe there's a Santa because it's fun to, and some people don't believe. We really don't make it that big of a deal in our house. I think some people make way too much of an issue of the whole Santa/lying-to-your-children thing. I was brought up in a totally non-religious household and we still celebrated Christmas, Santa and all. There was never any religion involved or stories of "Baby Jesus" or the bible or any of that crap. Just family, togetherness, gift-giving and sharing. And, yes, Santa. I tell my son that Christmas, for us, is just about tradition, that's all. I believed in Santa until I was like 8 or 9. I lived through it unscathed, and I still became a free-thinker/humanist/atheist. I think my kid will too.... Last year my 8 year-old he asked me directly if there really was a Santa or if it was really “just you and dad”. I told him that of course his father and I give him gifts and that some people like to believe there’s a Santa because it’s fun to, and some people don’t believe. We really don’t make it that big of a deal in our house. I think some people make way too much of an issue of the whole Santa/lying-to-your-children thing.

I was brought up in a totally non-religious household and we still celebrated Christmas, Santa and all. There was never any religion involved or stories of “Baby Jesus” or the bible or any of that crap. Just family, togetherness, gift-giving and sharing. And, yes, Santa. I tell my son that Christmas, for us, is just about tradition, that’s all.

I believed in Santa until I was like 8 or 9. I lived through it unscathed, and I still became a free-thinker/humanist/atheist. I think my kid will too….

]]> by: Amanda http://www.theatheistmama.com/2006/10/bad-santa.html#comment-1866 Fri, 27 Oct 2006 21:14:46 +0000 http://www.theatheistmama.com/2006/10/bad-santa.html#comment-1866 Allen, Great topic. I don't have kids yet, and I was previously sitting pretty firmly on the middle of the fence in regard to the entire Santa part of Christmas. I think you've put forth some excellent arguments for presenting Santa-type mythology in the same way I plan to present religion-type mythology. Thanks for the thoughts! Allen,

Great topic. I don’t have kids yet, and I was previously sitting pretty firmly on the middle of the fence in regard to the entire Santa part of Christmas. I think you’ve put forth some excellent arguments for presenting Santa-type mythology in the same way I plan to present religion-type mythology. Thanks for the thoughts!

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