RSS 2.0
War on Easter = Hate Crime?
I came across this comment from this post last night:
>Meantime, on a practical and realistic level, congregations should take whatever legal means are available to stop trespass, defacement, vandalism or whatever covers these acts, as needed. Use hate-crime statutes if necessary - turnabout is fair play, no? Public exposure and ridicule of the “perps” might be useful also.
(emphasis mine)
The War on Easter being a hate crime?? Come on… Can you imagine?
Tresspassing? Is a church a public place? Don’t my tax dollars support the property that the church sits on?
Vandalism? What vandalism?
I think that a lot of people would support this though. My husband warned me about the hate crime possibility before the mission.
on April 14th, 2006 at 11:36 am
Uh, isn’t it illegal for tax dollars to support a church?
But in any case, it’s hard to press tresspassing charges if they let you in.
on April 14th, 2006 at 11:55 am
Don’t hate crimes normally involve killing, burning, looting, etc.?? If it is now a “hate crime” to pester someone with information, there’s a whole bunch of people gonna hafta get in line. Starting with the Xtians.
on April 14th, 2006 at 1:45 pm
Uh, isn’t it illegal for tax dollars to support a church?
It is, right? But since churches don’t have to pay property tax, I just assume it’s coming out of the tax payers who do have to pay.
Contemplator, I agree. Can you imagine? As much as I can’t stand it when a witness comes a knockin, I wouldn’t want it to become a crime. I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. But they don’t seem to have a problem prosecuting us. Hmmm…
on April 14th, 2006 at 3:58 pm
Hey Cassandra. I wouldn’t get too worried. Although I’m not a lawyer, I’d say the person who made that statement isn’t the most rational of beings (even for a theist). He/she also said this:
“Personally, I believe as the end-game approaches, the little satan-puppets get more obnoxious and desperate, reflecting the fear of final, irrevocable defeat felt by their “master puppeteer.”
Can you feel the love?
Re the War of Easter… I’m not a big fan of the idea because of the negative image of atheists it will reinforce. However, it does seem to be providing some people with a mechanism for being active that hasn’t been available before.
I think activism for Freethought is, on the whole, a good thing. Hence, while I wouldn’t personally be active in the WoE (I’m active in other ways), I applaud the fact you are willing to be active!
on April 14th, 2006 at 4:24 pm
Surfed here on blogmad. Hmmm.
Not sure how I feel about your campaign. I don’t believe in Jesus, but my 8 year old still believes in Santa and the Easter Bunny. He seems to enjoy it. I’m not really sure I want another adult to disabuse him of that notion. Somehow, I thought maybe he’d eventually figure it out on his own, without too much emotional trauma.
…like the rest of us did.
Guess that’s the only part of your campaign that annoys me.
on April 14th, 2006 at 4:27 pm
Hate crime? Vandalism? Trespassing? Are these people NUTS??
I wonder which of those crimes I’m committing when I walk up to a church collection box and drop a dollar in.
Trespassing: You are quite right, all are supposed to be welcome at church.
Vandalism: We were specifically instructed not to touch anything that belongs to the church - just drop off the DVD in a place it will be found.
Hate crime: I don’t think so. Free speech is more like it, especially since we are not “targeting” individuals with a confrontational approach. I don’t think as passive an activity as dropping off a DVD could qualify as a hate crime in any court of law.
By the way Cassandra, I am linking up your site on my blog. Hope you don’t mind!
FTM
on April 14th, 2006 at 4:41 pm
NonProphet, I’m not worried at all. I know that there is no way a charge like that would stick, and I think that any lawyer would be willing to take that case on. How rediculous would that be?
trouble said:
Surfed here on blogmad. Hmmm.
Not sure how I feel about your campaign. I don’t believe in Jesus, but my 8 year old still believes in Santa and the Easter Bunny. He seems to enjoy it. I’m not really sure I want another adult to disabuse him of that notion. Somehow, I thought maybe he’d eventually figure it out on his own, without too much emotional trauma.
…like the rest of us did.
Guess that’s the only part of your campaign that annoys me.
Ok, when it comes to kids, I totally agree. I totally think that kids are off limits. I know that some of the people participating are targeting children, that’s not my thing. I would go through the roof if someone witnessed to my child. I can totally understand someone freaking out if their kid picked up an egg and it contained negative things about the Easter Bunny. The fliers that I passed out were not the ones made for children.
FTM, thanks for the link! I returned the favor, of course… I actually meant to add your link after commenting on your Benevolent Dictator post. :-)
on April 14th, 2006 at 4:45 pm
you are an absolute idiot. war on easter? move to afganistan you rebellious pig.
on April 14th, 2006 at 8:03 pm
you are an absolute idiot. war on easter? move to afganistan you rebellious pig.
Nice!! Thanks for stopping by!
on April 15th, 2006 at 12:46 am
FTM, thanks for the link! I returned the favor, of course… I actually meant to add your link after commenting on your Benevolent Dictator post. :-)
Thanks for linking back to me, as well as for your continuing comments on my post. It definitely seems as though you and I have quite a bit of common political ground. That’s refreshing, since libertarians are such a distinct minority in American society. One would think freedom-centric individuals don’t breed!
BTW, regarding the reply above: I wonder if that person deliberately misspelled Afghanistan as a joke. You know, to condescend to us atheists.
on April 15th, 2006 at 1:29 am
Hi!
Thanks for stopping by an commenting on my blog! Good stuff!
The ATHEIST Mama?! LOL!
I just wish people would learn to mind their own religious business!
on April 16th, 2006 at 11:45 am
It is sad the ignorance that pours from your helpless, empty souls. I hope that you, sometime in your life, find The Lord. Happy Easter. And by the way, no, churches are self supporting. It is against the law for the churches to receive federal money. Tax dollars DO NOT go to support any part of the church. Research your information before you post your ignorance.
on April 16th, 2006 at 2:33 pm
Unless Desiree understands where the Easter holiday gets its origins, she’s more ignorant in her beliefs than we are of the United States tax structure. Her holiday is no more Christian than I am.
on April 16th, 2006 at 4:01 pm
Desiree, thanks for all of the complements.
Churches do not pay property tax in most states. It’s a fact. Because of those tax breaks, the rest of us have to pick up the slack.
So thanks for pointing out my ignorance, but please consider actually reading what I’ve written before you go pointing fingers.
on April 16th, 2006 at 4:21 pm
Cassandra,
I see you have been visited by some “lovely” xians with such a lovely tone to what they write. I wonder if they are of the True Christian ™ variety that we hear most xians accuse other xians of not being???
For Desiree…read some mythology if you aren’t afraid gawd will strike you dead with a lightning bolt. Mythology will jumpstart the brain again:
Modern-day Easter is a blending of two traditions: one Judeo-Christian and the other Pagan. Both Christians and Pagans have death and resurrection themes on or after the Spring Equinox. Both Neopagans and Christians continue to celebrate religious rituals in the present day. Wiccans and other Neopagans hold their celebrations on the day or eve of the equinox. Christians wait until after the next full moon.
The Venerable Bede, (672-735 CE.) a Christian scholar, first asserted in his book De Ratione Temporum that Easter was named after Eostre (a.k.a. Eastre). She was the Great Mother Goddess of the Saxon people in Northern Europe. Similarly the Teutonic dawn goddess of fertility was known variously as Ostare, Ostara, Ostern, Eostra, Eostre, Eostur, Eastra, Eastur, Austron and Ausos.” Her name was derived from the ancient word for spring: “eastre.”
Christian worship of Jesus and Pagan worship of Attis were active in the same geographical area in ancient times, Christians “used to celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus on the same date; and pagans and Christians used to quarrel bitterly about which of their gods was the true prototype and which the imitation.”
on April 16th, 2006 at 8:16 pm
Aw, now stardust1954, if you don’t teach ‘em how to research, they’ll NEVER learn to find things for themselves! LOL.
on April 16th, 2006 at 8:51 pm
Contemplator -
But they wont research for themselves because it would be the ultimate sin to seek knowledge and they will pray to Jeebus not to be tempted with things satan has “planted.”
Hey Cassandra, speaking of knowledge - I have a job now with a company that grades the 8th grade standardized graduation tests and we are now doing the ones from Ohio! The ones I am grading are the science essay questions. You should see some of these answers! HOMESCHOOL your kids! I am serious! I can’t believe these are 13 & 14 year olds who don’t know the difference between ecology and economy and cannot spell, but get credit for what they have memorized even if it isn’t spelled correctly, and even if the rest of what they write is totally wrong! Also, we get a lot of answers that say “science will do you NO GOOD”…and “your science will not save you.” Those are zeros, of course, but the fact that it is even written by these kids is Scary!
on April 17th, 2006 at 7:33 pm
Oh Debbie, that is so NOT good news. Wow. Amazing…
Hey, thanks for the info. That is certainly not something that we will see on the local news, huh?
on April 18th, 2006 at 5:22 am
Stardust,
“HOMESCHOOL your kids” is one of the first things I have read that you have written that I would agree with.
I do understand and knew that “Easter” is based on pagan worship and a lot of those practices has been mixed in with the “Christian” celebration of the resurrection of Christ. The same thing goes for Christmas and many of the old pagan worship practices and objects being in Christian homes during this holiday.
Cassandra, a church building is not public property but is private property, and though churches are exempt from taxes they of course need to buy the building and property, pay the bills and all that. As far as tresspassing is concerned, I would think walking in to the building uninvited to do something against that private organization might be looked at like that. Being a taxpayer, I don’t think you would be able to just walk in to a public school building without being challenged and maybe being threatened with tresspassing if they thought you were up to no good. (not you personally, using the word you in general).
Contemplator said “Don’t hate crimes normally involve killing, burning, looting, etc.??” well, unfortunately no. Our society has gotten so thin skinned that “hate crimes” are often charged against people for stating their ideas and beliefs.
One myth that I would like to dispel though and this is no excuse for the folks who say that they are Christian and attack with choice words that they shouldn’t be uttering. This idea that Chisitanity is supposed to be all warm and cuddly and accepting of every belief or lifestyle is not Biblical teaching, and is not Biblical love.
on April 18th, 2006 at 9:42 pm
One myth that I would like to dispel though and this is no excuse for the folks who say that they are Christian and attack with choice words that they shouldn’t be uttering. This idea that Chisitanity is supposed to be all warm and cuddly and accepting of every belief or lifestyle is not Biblical teaching, and is not Biblical love.
Mueleski,
Every xian has his or her own “superior” version of Christian mythology. You believe you are right and the rest are wrong, the others believe you are wrong and they are right.
Amusing.
Also, Joseph Campbell stated : “Read myths. They teach you that you can turn inward, and you begin to get the message of the symbols. Read other people’s myths, not those of your own religion, because you tend to interpret your own religion in terms of facts — but if you read the other ones, you begin to get the message.”
on April 19th, 2006 at 3:31 am
Stardust,
What I find amusing is that I wasn’t addressing fellow Christians in my last post with my “superior” version of Christianity. I was addressing the misguided athiests for their “superior” version of truth and their narcisistic attitude of talking down to those they don’t agree with.
How many times have I seen a post on here or on another site say “That’s not what Jesus taught, or “I know your book better than you,” and it’s not what Jesus taught or is not what the Bible says. The biggest misunderstanding I find amonst non-believers is that Jesus taught acceptance of diversity of belief and acceptance of sin, He did not; and that is from the only trusted source we have that tells us what Jesus taught–the Bible.
It’s funny that you would quote Joseph Campbell, a well studied man for sure but one clearly described in the Bible in 2 Timothy 3:7 “Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” He believed, and you believe that Christ is a myth, that all religions are myths, but you are myth-staken (sorry for the pun, well, not really). Peter writes in 2 Peter 1:16 “For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.”
on April 19th, 2006 at 7:39 am
Mueleski - Your ancient book proves nothing. It was written by humans just like any other book. I was a christian for more than 30 years so don’t need to hear it again. People are free here in the USA to believe what they want to believe, but when one group wants to force its religion on another group, that is where problems come in. The atheists are pissed off at XIANS not their imaginary friend. This is an atheist blog, so what did you expect to hear? I myself do not go to xian blogs and try to deconvert everyone.
As for Cassandra “tresspassing”…Xians tresspass all the time…right up to my own front door and if I am not home they leave tracks and flyers.
Maybe the better approach should be to walk right up to xians and hand them our literature? Knock on the doors of your homes and wake you up to ask you why you believe that your mythology is NOT real? Troll your blogs and leave messages of hope if you drop the delusions?
Xians want to believe in their mythology because they are afraid to DIE. If you weren’t you would be excited about going to heaven…not sad. But most xians have a harder time with death than atheists do.
I know, I know…that is because your imaginary friend made you FLAWED. If you are flawed…why do you expect anyone to believe you. Why does this god send people like you who have such varied versions of the message (usually flavored with one’s own interpretation of how they would like to see god) and you can’t even agree amongst yourselves. The reason we give examples of “that is not what Jesus taught” etc is because you all have so many, many versions of this “truth.”
We are asking you to keep your beliefs to yourselves…in your own little “clubs”…no other groups behave in such a way when it comes to religion…they do their thing and leave others alone. (Except fundamentalist muslims who believe their gawd wants us all infidels dead –which includes xians.)
on April 19th, 2006 at 7:59 am
Mueleski - Also…you would not believe that your mythology is real if there wasn’t something in it for the SELF. How narcissistic is it to believe a super powerful being is concerned about little old you? If you want to talk about narcissism, just sit in a prayer service and listen to all those xians putting forth prayer requests, begging for things for themselves …as one blogger wrote “Prayer is Selfish Beggary.”
You want to somehow preserve your life forever. Your faith does you no good, however, since you weep louder than the heathens when you are diagnosed with a terminal illness, or when one of your believer relatives or friends die. You CLING to this world. IF you really believed in all that bunk, it seems to me that you all would be joyous about death.(It’s a good thing you don’t…that can be dangerous as the fundamentalist muslims show us with their suicide bombers)
Death to atheists is accepted as the nature of things…the cycle of life. We are sad, sure…but we don’t claim to have some magical kingdom waiting for us.
Xians are also machochistic…sitting in church week after week after week hearing how very BAD you are….bad bad bad.
Really..you are not bad, and an invisible being is not going to strike you with a lightning bolt or send you to a lava pit if you question your ingrained and indoctrinated beliefs.
on April 19th, 2006 at 6:58 pm
In two posts above I meant to say “Knock on the doors of your homes and wake you up to ask you why you believe that your mythology “is” real? I was in a hurry before work…sorry
on April 20th, 2006 at 12:13 am
stardust,
First off, thank you for being so candid with me. You may not believe this, but I have enjoyed discussing these issues with you and hearing your views on them, it helps me to understand some of the why’s I have on why people don’t believe.
You have mentioned a few times of how would Christians like it if you came to their door and challenged them and their beliefs in God. I don’t think it would go over to well with a lot of folks, I think you can tell that by some of the posts that get put on here. I wouldn’t be offended and would welcome the discussion, but could imagine that if I thought I was being particularly singled out it would get on my nerves. I have gone door to door witnessing quite often and never knew who I was going to meet in the house or what their belief is, and have never said to myself “self, an Athiest lives there, go bother them!” Also, there is no way that I could know that you were just visited last week, or an hour ago, by Mormons or Jehova Witnesses. Why do I go door to door then? I go not to “force” my “religion” on someone but in hopes of finding someone who is seeking the truth but doesn’t know were to go to get it. (Don’t say it, I think I know what your thinking, but remember in my mind I do have the truth.)
Now this statement of yours I don’t understand: “Xians want to believe in their mythology because they are afraid to DIE” and “.. most xians have a harder time with death than atheists do.” I’m not sure were you get that information. You state it like a known and irrefutable fact, and I have heard and seen quite the opposite. If someone really believes that we leave this world and go in to the presence of our Blessed Saviour, I don’t think they would be holding on that hard to this. Now, personally I don’t look forward to the process of death, unless it’s death during sleep, that probably won’t be to bad, but I don’t fear deaths aftermath. Death, after all is just a seperation not an ending.
You also say, “Your faith does you no good, however, since you weep louder than the heathens when you are diagnosed with a terminal illness, or when one of your believer relatives or friends die.” I take it that you have personally witnessed this? I have, once again, seen the opposite and have witnessed people face their terminal illness and death with dignity and faith.
You also say that Christians are masochistic sitting in church week after week hearing how bad we are. That is not why I go, I already know how bad I am and the Bible says “there is none righteous no not one–for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God!” It also says “The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ the Lord.” I go to church to worship the God that has forgiven my sins and given me eternal life even though I’m not deserving of it.
on April 20th, 2006 at 12:36 am
uh oh! Proseltyzing alert!
You also say that Christians are masochistic sitting in church week after week hearing how bad we are. That is not why I go, I already know how bad I am and the Bible says “there is none righteous no not one–for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God!” It also says “The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ the Lord.” I go to church to worship the God that has forgiven my sins and given me eternal life even though I’m not deserving of it.
Mueleski - I have heard this ten million times if I have heard it once. If you truly believe this, why must you go week after week to have it repeatedly hammered into your brain? Why not walk in this wonderful world amongst the trees and feel the breeze upon your face instead of sitting in a room full of borg and reciting the brainwashing liturgy? If you keep going to these services, you will continue to be programmed. It’s the same old thing, week after week. Once you are away from it, you start thinking for yourself and it’s quite refreshing and wonderful.
Also, don’t you know how annoying it is to people to have bible thumpers bother them IN THEIR OWN HOME? Why don’t you just leave us alone? That is my big pet peeve with xians. That is what pisses people off so much. You don’t have the answers yourselves about your own religion. Who the hell are you to think you have all the right to tell people how to live? You could be 100% WRONG about everything.(I know in my mind that you ARE wrong, but need a crutch.)
If this message was so damed important, why would an all-powerful being send his FLAWED creatures to witness for him when they can’t even get the story straight amongst themselves? If the message was “life or death” for his dear creatures you would think he would want to tell the CORRECT story HIMSELF. But, we know why he doesn’t…BECAUSE HE DOESN’T EXIST.
Throughout the ages, humans have been afraid to die and cannot outsmart nature…therefore they create ways to cope with the knowledge of their inevitable end. A crutch…a coping device. Some of us don’t need that. We are content in our acceptance of how life is.
Why can’t you respect that?
on April 20th, 2006 at 12:48 am
You also say, “Your faith does you no good, however, since you weep louder than the heathens when you are diagnosed with a terminal illness, or when one of your believer relatives or friends die.” I take it that you have personally witnessed this? I have, once again, seen the opposite and have witnessed people face their terminal illness and death with dignity and faith.
Yes, I have…many, many times, mostly on the parts of the mourners left behind. They fall apart…need valium..need to call their pastor. Instead of celebrating the life of the deceased and happy that they are off to the great beyond with their heavenly sky daddy they fall apart.
I have seen xians with all this professed faith COLLAPSE OVER COFFINS…which is quite freaky and yes, undignified.
I was there the day my brother-in-law died at age 35 from Lou Gehrig’s disease…he went in dignity and without a pastor or church involved. My grandfather was an atheist and he said not to be afraid, this was life and how things are to be in the cycle of life. I learned MUCH more about dignity and grace from atheists and agnostics than I have any xian in my whole 30 something years of being a xian.
on April 20th, 2006 at 12:58 am
You can’t convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it’s based on a deep seated need to believe. [Carl Sagan]
on April 20th, 2006 at 6:26 am
stardust, Carl Sagan is right now wishing he would have believed, and knows that he erroneously looked at the “evidence.”
God did give us the correct story Himself–it’s called the Bible.
You’re right, He could have chosen angels to give His message, but he chose His flawed sinful followers to give the message to the flawed sinful lost.
on April 20th, 2006 at 7:43 am
Carl Sagan is right now wishing he would have believed, and knows that he erroneously looked at the “evidence.”
Carl Sagan is dead…his legacy and memory lives on.
ALL religions have ancient texts. Big deal. It proves nothing. I wouldn’t want to believe in it anyway…considering how this god is a baby killer, people killer, tormenter, teaser. This god could have set up the world any way it wanted, but he chose violence…starting with a violence in heaven before humans were created. According to the bible this god planned everything the way it is…so this god is just a dick. He chose to make flawed humans…and allow satan out of the pit to run free…and satan seems like a much nicer character in the bible than this revengeful and hateful god. (Just like most gods of mythology…he plays games with his mortal subjects. Most people disregard the OT, thank goodness because it’s all FICTION.
You have no proof of this god’s existence…your bible is written by flawed humans and is a jumble of violence, porn, poetry, history, mythology, and so on. You pick and choose what you want to believe from it like a smorgasborg.
I believe in the GOODNESS of humankind. For the most part humans are good and do not deserve whatever you believe they and you yourself deserve. It is absurd to think that an all powerful being is so needy as to create creatures to bow down to him, and then set them up with a temptation, and then punish them and every generation after for falling for his set-up. Absurd. Just think about how absurd it really is.
I am done with this circular argument.
on April 20th, 2006 at 10:44 am
Stardust,
I think that down deep in your heart you know God exist and you are angry at Him. I would go so far as say you hate Him, and out of the more than 30 years you say you were a Christian you never came to realize the love that God has for you. Your anger has blinded you to the true nature of God.
But you are right, you will keep going back to your same arguments and I will always keep going back to the Bible. I guess I am also done with this discussion with you.
on April 20th, 2006 at 6:44 pm
Mueleski,
Commandment for the modern age 6. Thou shalt not tell atheists what they believe, nor that thy god loveth them.
You don’t know me. Out of 30 years of silence and earning my Masters degree, studying religion and mythology side-by-side, and considering all the contradictions in the bible, I realized it is all made up like all of the other ancient religions and mythologies.
You need your religion to get through life, I don’t. I am happier now and more content than at any time in my entire life and I am going to be 52 this year…raised three children and have a wonderful husband. Life is good.
Peace to you.