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Let’s play a game
This game is a product of a few comments that were left during the War on Easter and the strike on a local church here in Columbus, Ohio.
A member of that church visited and left this comment:
>I am a Christian, I attend the big church you visited, I am not offended or threatened in any way by what you did. However, I would advise you to be very careful around this church or God might do to you what he did to me and reveal his love for you. It will drastically change your life and make you understand why we Christians look silly and sometimes do pretty stupid things.
He is madly in love with you and your very cute little kids!
And then left this comment:
>Cassandra, I was thanking God for you yesterday morning, and a thought came to mind from the 1980’s movie War Games. There was a line in the movie where the computer challenges its maker to a game. It said, “Do you want to play a game?”
>I think God is smiling upon the war on Easter. Enjoy the game!
Another commenter had this to say in response:
>[…]
>Kerry, if you want to play a real game, I dare you to research the religion you profess to bring “love.”
Kerry agreed and he we are. Edmond has agreed to join the game as well.
So the point of this “game” is to discuss Christianity with this Christian. Kerry has agreed to be open minded and to take a rational look at these beliefs, Christianity, and life. This is not about trying to change the mind of atheists. This is also not about conversion, for anyone. Kerry, if you disagree with something I’ve written here, let me know.
Yes, there are RULES.
No name calling.
No insults.
No threats.
RESPECT from both sides (atheists and theists alike).
Anyone who does not adhere to the above “rules” will be given a warning, and if they can not stick to the rules, their comments will be deleted.
Fair? If something isn’t clear or I missed something, let me know.
All right - theists, here are a few things that you need to answer for us first.
1. What is your religion?
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
4. What do you do for a living?
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
I’m not asking for a life story, just some background info.
If I edit anything in this original post, I will post it in the comments.
Let the game begin!!
on April 17th, 2006 at 5:52 pm
Hi Kerry,
My question (or suggestion) is for a thought exercise. I’m not asking you to change what you think but just to play along for the answer to this question.
Imagine that, somehow, it is found that there is no God. I don’t really think it’s possible to determine this, but just imagine that we have somehow determined this.
Would you change anything about the way you, as a Christian, live your life?
on April 17th, 2006 at 7:08 pm
hey Cassandra is anyone allowed to play this “game/challenge”?
on April 17th, 2006 at 7:18 pm
Yes Nicholas, this game is open to all! :-) Thanks for asking.
on April 17th, 2006 at 7:48 pm
I was raised thru catholic to a Baptist as a child then rebelling I even considered myself somewhat satanic, having grown out of that for the past 3 years or so I consider myself spiritual but not religious (if that makes any sense). I believe there is a powerful being out there but I don’t believe in organized religion. I believe ‘worship’ shouldn’t have to be more then a thank you during a quiet personal prayer or a outspoken dialogue during ones turmoil is enough. For me it goes back to the principal of a person and people, a person many times loses themselves in a group of people. Following the actions of a mob other then what they may have done if it was just them. One of the many things that led me to this way of thinking is the catholic church’s actions during the initial confrontations
In the initial stages of contact between European Christians and Native Indians people the attitude towards the Indians was that of Christian superiority. The Indians were read a proclamation in Spanish which they had no hope of understanding. They had no hope of understanding the death sentence they were being read, and it went something like this. “We ask and require you to acknowledge the church as the ruler and superior of the whole world and the high priest called pope and in his name the king of Spain as lords of this land. If you submit we shall receive you in all love and charity and shall leave you, your wives and children free without servitude, but if you do not submit we shall powerfully enter into your country and shall make war against you, we shall take you and your wives and your children and shall make slaves of them and we shall take away your goods and do you all the harm and damage we can.”
With Christian love and a moral authority they killed medicine men and stole a country. Forcing the Indians to get down on their knees and pray to the lord. Though they helped us survive the Christian soldiers laughed while they bled. Only for years later to deny what they did, as they write their own history. They hung Indians by thirteen in honor and reverence for their redeemer and their twelve apostles
The Spaniard soldiers made bets as to who could slit a man in two or cut off his head with one blow. They tore babies from their mother’s breast by their feet and dashed their head against the rocks. . They put wood underneath and with fire burned the Indians alive. In three simple words… Christians murdered Indians. I’m not saying its the fault of the religion but of organized religion men corrupted by power, money and opportunity
on April 17th, 2006 at 9:45 pm
Could I just ask that people be as concise as possible please? I think I got U_B’s point, but it was quite long and rambly at points. I think the whole thing will facilitate discussion better if we are as pithy as possible.
on April 17th, 2006 at 10:29 pm
1. What is your religion?
Christian
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
June 1991
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
Cassandra, I will explain my experience which you will see describes more of a relationship than an intellectual assent. Although I have thoroughly examined the claims of Jesus and find no equal, the following describes how I came to know Him personally.
I grew up thinking that religion was for weak people. I thought that if there was a God he forgot to teach me what is love.
I was a pretty good kid but found out good kids didn’t have very much fun. So I chased popularity through high school. It worked pretty well but I found myself becoming a fraud. I cheated on girls and lied to my friends.
I barely made it through college because of my partying and told many of my friends I was in search of the ultimate buzz. The buzz proved illusive and I eventually got married because that is what you are supposed to do when you graduate. I had an awesome little girl and bought a house. However, I was a pretty lousy dad and a worse husband.
My wife left me and I was very depressed. I plotted my suicide. A co-worker noticed my depression. He asked me what was wrong. I didn’t want to tell him because I knew he was a Christian and thought he would judge me. He finally persuaded me to tell him. When I did he told me he understood, that marriage was hard and he struggled too. I was blown away by his response. A couple days later I prayed and asked God to come into my heart.
The next day when I was driving to see a divorce attorney my world stopped. I felt as if God put his arm around me and said “Kerry, I love you, I am going to take care of you, it doesn’t matter what you have done in the past, we are going to make it through this together.” The shame from all my failures and guilt were suddenly gone, my heart was free and I found the ultimate buzz I had searched for so desperatly for in a budweiser bottle. I was able to and had the great desire to stop partying, cussing, and then live honestly. I now have a great marriage.
He has been there for me ever since - though I haven’t been as faithful. And now I do know what is Love!+
4. What do you do for a living?
Co-Director of a community center
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
College Degree
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
Cassandra, I would love to hear how you arrived at your belief’s!
on April 17th, 2006 at 10:30 pm
RR -If there was no God -Would you change anything about the way you, as a Christian, live your life?
I so sucked at living life on my own terms and paid dearly for it - If I could, I would certainly try and live the way I do now, but without God I wouldn’t have the power to do it.
on April 17th, 2006 at 10:41 pm
Kerry, so would you say that people who “find God” also have this personal experience, or is it religated to one particular relgion? I’ve never had that personal experience, and I was raised quite actively in church. I even had someone try to convice me that I did “know god” when I was little. I didn’t. I sincerely prayed for such experiences as you claim to have had. I never got them. Why would you say that was?
I’ve been an atheist since I was a child. It just took growing into an adult and reasoning out thoughts that were in m brain for years before I understood it. To each his own?
on April 18th, 2006 at 9:51 am
Cassandra, I would love to hear how you arrived at your belief’s!
Fair enough! :-)
1. What is your religion?
Atheist. :-)
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
3 years or so.
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
Ha! I couldn’t keep it short. You can read it here. I backdated it. I’ve been meaning to re-vamp the “about me” part of this blog anyway.
4. What do you do for a living?
I’m a Stay At Home Mom.
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
I’m damn lucky I made it through highschool. I hated school and spent most of my time partying. I didn’t go to class often at the end of highschool. I had the opportunity to go to college but I didn’t want to go to where my parents wanted to send me. So I opted out of college.
on April 18th, 2006 at 10:10 am
U_B, thanks for the post. What happend to the natives of this land is unspeakable. I wonder if history is repeating itself sometimes…
Contemplator, I agree. :-)
Kerry, thanks for answering my questions. I answered them too (just incase you missed it).
LOL, I think we had a similar experience in school, as far as the partying goes. I see that your path to Jesus (God?) goes through some pretty difficult times. I think it’s the same for a lot of people. I have seen it happen to someone I’m very close to recently.
So I always wonder if it’s the desperate need for something good and fulfilling that brings some people to the place you are now. Do you think that the it’s possible that when you prayed that day in the car, that it wasn’t God but just you deciding to become a person that you wanted to be? Why do you think that it took praying to get you to this point? Was it something that you weren’t able to do on your own? Couldn’t you have simply made the decision to pick yourself up?
on April 18th, 2006 at 11:45 am
1.What is your religion?
None. I’m an ex-fundamentalist Christian and an atheist.
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
I quit being a Christian about 25 years ago and ceased to believe in any god or goddess over 10 years ago.
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
Studying mythology and religions, reading the bible, researching the history of Christianity, etc.
4. What do you do for a living?
I am an investor, stay-at-home mom, poet and photographer. (Only one of those is my “living”, the others are my life.)
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
BA in psychology, cum laude.
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
My poem which I wrote in an attempt to address many of the most prevalent assumptions believers have about nonbelievers. (I’ll put slashes where the line breaks are supposed to be in case it loses its format):
I Am An Atheist
It is not for a lack of desire,/
for who would not want an Omnipotent Being/
looking out for one’s welfare,/
protecting one’s loves?/
It is not for a streak of rebellion,/
for I live my life no differently/
than most who believe in God./
It is not for disappointment/
in prayers unanswered,/
for my life is good./
Some call it “blessed”./
It is not due to misunderstanding,/
for once I believed as they do,/
bible at my bed, read through/
dark nights of doubt,/
praises to God in the morning./
It is not due to anger at clergy,/
nor encountering the wrong church/
or hypocrite laity,/
for I’ve known many wonderful believers./
It is not hatred, fear, pride,/
selfishness, or lack of education;/
It is not bigotry, persecution, or immorality/
that prevents me from believing./
I am an atheist,/
not believing in the gods of today/
for the same reason believers/
disbelieve/
in the gods of yesterday./
on April 18th, 2006 at 12:12 pm
Michelle,
That is cool poem and my answers to the questions are pretty much the same except I was a xian for just a few years, though a serious one who read the bible daily.
on April 18th, 2006 at 12:14 pm
Except, I’m an accountant and have an accounting degree.
on April 18th, 2006 at 12:50 pm
Michelle, love the poem. The last part is great!
Contemplator said:
I sincerely prayed for such experiences as you claim to have had. I never got them.
I longed for the experience that Kerry had as well. When I was in that Catholic school when I was younger, I wanted to “feel” God very badly and prayed for it too.
Kerry (and anyone else who has had that experience) is it possible that you wanted so badly to have a reason to continue to live that the experience you had was psychological? I think that this is what I was trying to get at in my last comment. I wonder if it is at all possible that it’s a coping mechanism rather than God.
on April 18th, 2006 at 1:01 pm
Thanks for the comments on the poem!
Cassandra… I had those experiences when I believed. A sense of euphoria, of connectedness with “God”, etc. I’ve also had them since I stopped believing, only it’s not a connectedness with “God” but a sense of “oneness with the Universe” or with “nature”, or with “humanity”. I think many of us have had the same or similar feelings. I think those feelings are part of being human. (I also think they are sometimes products of our own physiology, of endorphins, of what we’ve been eating or drinking or smoking… Even just the feel of the sun on our skin can give us that overall sense of wellbeing…) Believers, and/or people who want to believe, attribute that feeling to “God”.
on April 18th, 2006 at 2:27 pm
1. What is your religion?
Christian
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
10 years
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
Just went to church with my parents and one time at my young age (of 6) i relized that what was happening to my parents was really cool and i wanted to be apart of that and since that choice its been extremly awesome for me.
4. What do you do for a living?
student
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
still in highschool
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
Just that my life has been pretty hard resently. like at one point i just decided to leave Jesus. but then my life got so much worse so i went back to Him and then from then on my life has begun to get better. slowly at that but still.
on April 18th, 2006 at 2:51 pm
Hello there, i’ve been wondering something for a very long time about athiest.
If you dont believe there is a God, then what do you have to lose to believe that there is a God?
like if there is no God then well u end up in Hell or whatever you believe in, but if you believe there is a God and it ends up there isn’t then wouldn’t you end up in the same place?
I just dont get how people can believe in nothing at all. like atleast in believing in a God you have hope, and hope is one of many things that keep people going. like soldiers in wartime, they have hope that they will beat the enemy and wont die, but if they didn’t have that hope then how good do you think the military would be? it would be like the French (no offense to any French people) that just loose every war they are in, the reason why they lose is because they dont have hope that they can beat them (among many reasons why they lose). I guess i just dont get how people can believe in “Nothing” cause like, if you believe in nothing then well i take it you dont believe in air? cause i believe theres air out there. i’m not trying to bash anyone out there i just dont get anything about athiest. like i’m a Christian and i go to the same church that Kerry Davis goes to and i dont know i just cant figure out how people can not believe in anything.
P.S: did you know that the early Christians in Rome were called athiest?… just a little fact. cya guys
on April 18th, 2006 at 3:16 pm
Peppy, thanks for asking. Don’t mind these types of questions at all because the more you know about “us” the better.
If you dont believe there is a God, then what do you have to lose to believe that there is a God?
For me, what I have to lose is my entire life. I don’t want to live my entire life for a god that no one knows is there just in case… Talk about a lot of wasted time and effort!
like if there is no God then well u end up in Hell or whatever you believe in, but if you believe there is a God and it ends up there isn’t then wouldn’t you end up in the same place?
Ok, just to clairify, atheists don’t believe in hell. Or heaven. When we die, we die. That’s it. Just like a plant (unless people believe in plant heaven - I don’t know).
As far as hope goes, I have plenty of hope. I have hope for my future, my family, I try to have hope for my country. You don’t need a god to have hope. Believe me. All of the atheists that you will meet here are living proof. I live a good, honest, fulfilling life just like anyone else. The difference is that I don’t hold on to what I consider a myth.
P.S: did you know that the early Christians in Rome were called athiest?… just a little fact.
I’m not sure where you heard that but it’s not true.
[link]
Thanks for coming by Peppy! Hope to hear from you again. :-)
on April 18th, 2006 at 3:24 pm
Nicholas, thanks for your comment. I wanted to ask you what exactly it was that you saw happening for your parents that you wanted to be a part of?
Do you think that it’s at all possible for you to get the same type of fulfillment in your life without going to church? What is it that you are getting from church and god?
You say that your life has been hard lately. I remember… High school was some of the hardest years - for soooo many people. You say you left Jesus and things got worse. Coincidence?? You say when you went back to him, things got better. Do you think that the fact that things got worse for you was based on your guilt for turning away from Jesus?
on April 18th, 2006 at 4:04 pm
Hi Peppy,
Good question. You have a really interesting point of view that I wasn’t aware of until recently.
Most atheists not only do not believe in God, but they do not believe in any supernatural. Why? Because there is no evidence that would lead one to believe that there is supernaturalism in this universe. The supernatural is an invention of human kind to satisfy our intense desire to know everything. Gradually, as we learn more and more research techniques, we are beginning to realize that there are natural explanations for everything, it just takes time to get them, and understand them.
There is, for example, no evidence of any “eternal soul”. Our personality is made up physically inside our brain. There is much more to learn but contrary to popular belief, we do know a lot about how our personality is based on physical characteristics of our brain. When we die, life is simply over. We don’t “go” anywhere. Our energy of course breaks down and returns to the earth, but there’s no consciousness there.
That doesn’t scare us. In fact, I would ask you to consider this… The idea of eternal life is not only bazarre it is frightening. What happens when you get sick of it? Multiply your life by a trillion, and notice that you’re nowhere even close to eternity… can you really imagine having to go on that long?? In addition, if the Christian world-view is correct, then how do you explain how everyone is happy in Heaven, even though billions of their friends, family, coworkers, and others are suffering eternal torment in Hell?
Note, I am not admitting that Heaven or Hell could exist, just posing a question about your world-view.
I really don’t understand this concept of “hope”. What is it about religion that gives you hope? Is this life so miserable that you need hope that the next one will be better? I view this as extremely counter-productive. It gives people no reason to get off their butts and make their life (this life!) better. When people realize that this is their only chance, maybe they will learn to make the most of it.
Your comments about the military are interesting, because it shows my point perfectly. When you’re at war, and you’re being fired upon, there are at least two things people have been known to do. Pray, or focus on the events of the attack and react appropriately (fire back, retreat, etc.). In this case, the ones who pray are the ones who die.
Atheists do not believe in nothing, they just lack belief in a deity. They can believe in all sorts of things, like air, family, compassion, etc.
What is the meaning of life? The answer is simple. You give meaning to your own life. You can give it any meaning you want. Don’t get hung up on the ancient concept that for us to be here, there must have been a reason.
I would strongly recommend any Christian who is curious about atheism to carefully read “Why doesn’t God Heal Amputees” at http://www.whydoesntgodhealamputees/ It’s a good read, in my opinion. Very easy to read, yet thorough and concise.
Hope that helps!
on April 18th, 2006 at 4:39 pm
Hey, Peppy! I think the questions are fair.
My simple response is that I wish to live my life without laboring under illusions. I want reality, not myths, propping up the way I live and how I think. I want reality, common sense, and reason to determine how I live and treat people. Do you think you could be good to people without having God tell you so? Lots of atheists think so. Atheism isn’t a belief in “nothing”, but rather just not believing in god. I don’t believe in Zeus, Odin or any of the other pantheon of gods to trot through human civilization. The Christian God is basically just one more god I don’t believe in but you do.
I think a lot of people are turned on to Christianity because they like the pretty picture of heaven. It takes more courage, I think, to make something out of this life now, rather than expecting a deity to makes something out of it for you.
on April 18th, 2006 at 4:44 pm
I think there is very much something to the “psychological” effect of thinking God has touched you personally. I’ve gotten those same feelings out of non profit work, which is what I do. You feel better when you have those feelings, and our Western culture is so saturated with Christianity that you would automatically attribute that feeling to the Christian god. Feeling guilty and “watched” on the other hand, I know makes some people feel that god “disapproves” of what they’re doing. Why couldn’t that just be your own guilt complex at work?
I think what this discussion is ultimately going to boil down to is that as a Christian you just have to have faith. Period. You can’t prove God exists. You just have to have faith he’s there. And for atheists, well, I for one like reason. So I don’t take most things on faith. And there we will come to an impasse.
on April 18th, 2006 at 4:50 pm
1. What is your religion?
None. Culturally Jewish. Go to church with my Christian wife.
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
Since early adulthood. It crystalized in my late-teens .
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
Judaism had a bit too much meaningless (to me) ritual. As I learned about the world it became clear that God was an idea that evolved through the ages.
4. What do you do for a living?
Computer system work.
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
BA, philosophy
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
Ask away.
on April 18th, 2006 at 5:01 pm
Cassandra, I’ve also read that the early Christians were refered to as “atheists” due to their not worshipping the Roman gods. Here is a link to info on that: http://www.darkfiber.com/atheisms/atheisms/paganathsm.html
Peppy, atheists don’t believe in “nothing”. We just don’t believe in gods. I believe in myself, my loved ones, my friends, the human potential for doing good, and many other wonderful things. It does not take a belief in any god to give me hope. No belief in any god would make me love my son more, appreciate my friendships more, increase my natural human urge to help where I can, or intensify my simple enjoyment of the many positive aspects of being alive. Christians often present this argument, but I cannot help but wonder why they don’t see how that argument works against them. You suggest that we atheists should just go ahead and believe “just in case” there really is a god, but don’t you see that Jesus is not the only possible god? Why don’t YOU worship Ganesh “just in case” it’s really all about an Indian fertility god? What if there IS a god and that god is Allah? Why don’t you believe in ALL the gods, “just in case”? In addition, I truly don’t understand how it is that one can just “choose” to believe something they don’t believe…. Can I just decide that I do believe in alien abductions just because someone tells me to? Can you?
on April 18th, 2006 at 8:28 pm
Michelle, thanks for pointing that out!! I actually did a search on “early christianity” and “atheism” but as you can imagine, there were millions of results. :-)
Thank you to all of you for the participation!! Great conversation going on here.
on April 18th, 2006 at 10:57 pm
The Lord tells us to love and bless our enemies…
If I were to stop from being a Christian, I would CONDAMN you all!!!
But okkkk… I’ll just pray for you all little anti-Christs who disguise as atheists.
The only problem that i have with ATHEISTS is that they have no God, thus they may have no moral
rules and stuff - exceptions are probably abundant, of course. Yet my problem is with those so-called
“atheists” whom not only “Don’t believe in God” (or a god), but rather go and persecute
CHRISTIANITY. Why not other religions? Why? What did God do to them? And if they feel that
God did do something to them, isn’t that then revenge, and thus they do believe in God, or a god?
If the “atheists” do not want to be preached, then have a gentle, nice, informative, healthy, and REAL
debate and conversation rather than a stupid persecution on Christianity!
on April 19th, 2006 at 12:02 am
Wow - I don’t know where to start! There are some really neat people on this site.
Contemplator- I don’t know why you didn’t experience God as a child. I remember praying for twins who both loved God and one experienced his presence the other didn’t. Who knows? I do know that the other twin who didn’t have the experience kept pursuing God and enjoys a heathly relationship with God to this day.
Different churches focus on different things. My church tries to do the whole Bible, serving the poor, praying for the sick, sharing Jesus, developing an intimate relationship with God etc.
Contemplator, if you still want to explore pursuing this experience my email is kerrywdavis@yahoo.com.
Cassandra, I enjoyed your story of how you arrived at your beliefs. I really think it stinks that you were laughed at in class. In fact, the entire treatment you received in organized religion sucked.
As for your question: Kerry - is it possible that you wanted so badly to have a reason to continue to live that the experience you had was psychological? I think that this is what I was trying to get at in my last comment. I wonder if it is at all possible that it’s a coping mechanism rather than God.
A few days before I committed my life to Christ, I raged at my two year old daughter to stop singing Jesus loves me (I have it on videotape) I hated God, I hated the sound of the name Jesus. Why did I hate Him? I didn’t hate Buhda. Jesus was certainly not the coping mechanism I would have chosen at that time.
I’ve had psychological experiences, when I was in college I tried mushrooms. I had a blast. I spent 4 hours in a bathroom laughing with my buddies about the different inventions that people had come up with (pretty stupid huh?) I told my buddies I need to tell my dad about this drug, that I found out what life is all about!
I am easily bored, my interest in new hobbies never lasts more than a few months and then I am on to the next thing. I would be bored of a coping mechanism in a few days. My fascination with God has been going on for 15 years and gets better and more interesting every year.
on April 19th, 2006 at 12:05 am
With responses like condamn you, I totally get why people choose atheism.
on April 19th, 2006 at 3:59 am
1. What is your religion?
None
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
Most of my life.
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
Raised Quaker, brief marriage to a Catholic, spent 5 years with a Buddhist and for 14 years now happily married to a Jewish man. Throughout this time, even in childhood, I do not ever remember actually believing in a supernatural god. However, until recently I thought that this meant I was an agnostic. Recently, I came to realize that I am an athiest.
4. What do you do for a living?
mother, ITS, customer service and write, mother
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
Tech school, some college,life
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
I believe that we often forget how much we have in common, which makes me sad sometimes.
I believe in goodness, compassion, forgiveness and kindness.
I believe in tolerance.
I believe that fear is often behind intolerance. I believe in science.
I believe that we have one life that we should make the best of, and that we should strive to be good citizens of the planet and the human race. That when we make mistakes, we should remedy them. That we should forgive others as well as ourselves.
I find strength in simply having faith in my fellow human beings. I have a lot of faith in love. Some of the most moral people I have met have been athiests.
There are no guarantee’s that things will go our way in life, no matter what religion we practice. I choose to accept that. I don’t need a god for that.
on April 19th, 2006 at 5:04 am
1. What is your religion?
Independent Baptist/Christian
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs: 1972
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs: Born and raised in the Catholic church. Stopped believing in God/thought the Bible a man made thing to keep others under control. Hard to totally explain in a short space but God started dealing with my life, through different ways, I couldn’t seem to escape it. Clearly heard a message on “Salvation through Christ”, repented of my sins, trusted Christ for salvation, was “Born Again”. Didn’t have an experience like Kerry talks about then, but did have an emotional type of event happen later on when I had backslidden into sin.
4. What do you do for a living? U.S. Air Force currently deployed to Iraq
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing. Associates Degree in Aerospace Engineering
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important. Well, some folks seem interested in the emotional event that may or may not accompany a salvation experience; its not needed to prove anything but I think is what can be a natural result of realizing your sins are forgiven and you are going to spend eternity with God.
Another thing I would like to address is the word hope. Many times when the Bible refers to hope, like the hope of eternal life, its not referring to a desire that may or may not be fulfilled like in “I sure hope it don’t rain today!” Often the hope spoke of in the Bible is for a future event that will happen, just not sure when. Kind of like the idea of when women use to have “hope chests” for the day they would marry, at least I don’t think women still do that do they? I think the word hope is being used here more like having a positive attitude that things will work out or something along that line.
I for one don’t believe that being an Athiest means being void of morals and in fact, sad to say, some Athiests may live a more moral life than a believer. This may sound contradictory to some, but I think that in some cases it is true.
Jason, there is a third option that you didn’t mention and that would be to pray and react, and possibly pray while reacting. I would dare say that there would be a few athiest who would no doubt react while evoking the name of a diety in that situation also. But please don’t equate being a Christian and a man/woman of prayer as being weak in the face of battle. Some of our country’s greatest militaty leaders where men of Faith.
RR asks that if it were found out, proven that there was no God would I still believe? First, let me of course say that will never be proven because it’s not true–There is a God! I had to say this disclaimer before I said this next part. No, I wouldn’t believe in God if He didn’t exist, what would be the point?
Good discussion going here Cassandra, if nothing else we may all better understand each other even if we don’t agree with each other.
on April 19th, 2006 at 8:11 am
Mueleski: Actually what I was asking was, if you knew for sure that there were no god, would you change anything about the way you live?
Thanks, btw, for noting that you don’t have to be religious to act ethically.
on April 19th, 2006 at 9:03 am
I guess I should play the game properly here:
1. What is your religion?
Atheist/Bright/Zen Buddhist (not a religion, actually)
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
For-sure-atheist, the last 4 years. I was almost always skeptical and for a while I guess I was agnostic.
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
Atheist — never saw any evidence of a god, and one by one as I learned more about physics, biology, etc the things I needed god to explain went away.
Bright — just sort of comes along with being an atheist, I think.
Zen Buddhist — Zen Buddhism is a well-refined mechanism for observing and changing the way your own mind works. There are some Buddhist sects that believe in literal reincarnation and such, Tibetans for example… Zen buddhists in general and I in particular do not.
4. What do you do for a living?
Graduate student/research assistant, study heart attacks with computer models
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
Bachelors of Science in Engineeering - major of Biomedical Enginering and some grad school in the same. Working on a PhD (fingers crossed).
on April 19th, 2006 at 9:26 am
Wow, I’ve never been “CONDAMNED” before. I’m pretty sure my insurance doesn’t cover it.
I have nothing but respect for Christians (and other religious people) who do live a good life and treat others fairly, etc. I disagree with them when they want to shove their standards onto others. Christians would be up in arms if the Jewish faith tried to make all the food comply to kosher standards or else it couldn’t be sold. They’d be pretty aggravated if they didn’t get time off for their holidays, too, although plenty of other minority religions don’t get time off. Those Christians I have no use for, and are pretty dangerous to the fabric of society.
If one believes God “graces” some and not others, even though both kinds sincerely pray, then that strikes me as predestination. In which case, what difference does it make?
Kerry, I get those same feelings from non profit work. No worship of any kind involved. I came to realize it was the only part of “church” I had ever truly found fulfilling. But you certainly don’t need a church to feel good about doing the “right” thing.
I don’t feel like my “hope” is the kind of “I hope it doesn’t rain today.” My hope rests more in my own hands, and not in some vague afterlife which I may or may not get depending on whether (or not) predestination kicks in.
on April 19th, 2006 at 10:17 am
Contemplator,
I was trying to describe the nuances of the word hope especially in reference to a Biblical hope. A Biblical hope is something that is sure to happen sometime in the future, and a Christian is looking forward to. I’m not saying that you have to agree with the idea but I’m trying to explain what I understand the Biblical meaning of the word to be.
So, if I were to say “I have a hope of heaven,” it doesn’t mean some vague afterlife which I may or may not get(your words). It means it is as sure as I’m breathing that I’m going.
Now you say “I don’t feel like my “hope” is the kind of “I hope it doesn’t rain today.” My hope rests more in my own hands.” But that doesn’t clear up to me what you mean by hope?
If you would, can you please explain what you mean by hope?
on April 19th, 2006 at 10:22 am
RR,
Sorry, I misunderstood.
Yes, I would stop going to church, stop reading my Bible, stop having family devotions, stop praying, stop tithing, and stop arguing with Athiest!
on April 19th, 2006 at 11:29 am
1.What is your religion?
Christianity
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
15 years
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs. In a time of desperation, fell upon the only person that could promise to never leave me or forsake me. So far he has backed it up.
4. What do you do for a living? Teacher Assistant in public school
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
BS Education
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
I saw that there’s a lot of interesting people on here, so I thought I would contribute what seems good.
I too, like the commenter at the top of the page, think God is smiling on the War on Easter. I think he loves the zeal and boldness that he has instilled in his children. I think he gave these people the chutzpah and the freedom to do what they are doing.
My answer to RR’s question: If it were proven that God didn’t exist, I would discard the process by which we come to proof, and attribute it to human fallibility. But– just so I don’t seem like I’m evading the question: If I DID somehow come to the conclusion that God didn’t exist, I would want to live my life as I am now, but it would be impossible. I would slide into the numerous sicknesses and dysfunctional behaviors that predominated “BC”.
There’s two ways of interpreting that: either the human mind is capable of great reversal when there is a strong belief(delusion), OR there is as external agent of transformation. Something entered into these people. How can you look at another and really say which? It really comes down to personal revelation.
There is a line from Rich Mullins “I did not make it, no it is making me.” This describes me pretty well.
on April 19th, 2006 at 12:37 pm
1)I am a believer (in Christ as God’s son) and through him I have a relationship with God.
2)I have claimed those beliefs for 21 years due to a realization through God’s word, the testimony of my family, and God’s working in the environment around me.
3)I am a director of a Sports Organization for Kids and will be entering seminary in the fall to aid me in a calling to be a pastor.
4)I have a BS in Computer Engineering
First let me say that we persuasion is futile. As a Christ follower, my job is not to persuade or argue, but to speak the truth plainly, and in love and kindness. (2nd Timothy 2:24-26 & 2nd Corinthians 4:2). I don’t put scripture reference as a proof to you of reality, rather so you understand that my words are not my own, but are based on what I believe to be the infallable word of God.
Secondly, remember that not all that claim to Christian are. Read Matthew 5-7. Pay special attention to 7:22. Jesus says that many will say they “knew” him, but Jesus will say, “I never knew you”. I think bitterness toward the church or those that claim The GOD is their god should not be tied up in bitterness toward God.
Finally, I would encourage anyone, believer or not to read C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity. He was a former atheist and describe s his reasoning behind following Christ. He does a great job of communicating the Christian faith. It is a very interesting read. I am happy to also take suggestions from anyone with another viewpoint about good reads.
My prayer is that we all know the Truth. I am sure that is what everyone here is interested in.
on April 19th, 2006 at 4:58 pm
To be vague and more clear at the same time, my “hope” doesn’t require that God step in and clear things up. My hope is more of the sort where if anything is going to be done, I have the ability to get it done. If the world is to be improved, I am to do it. I fully understand what “the hope of going to heaven” means. I was raised in a Christian household, and held those beliefs more or less rigidly for 18 years. I was pretty skillful at arguing from and with the Bible versus other texts. So I do think I understand what you’re saying. But, you *don’t* know whether or not you’re going to heaven. No one does. Most Christian sects believe that. It’s not something you’re told beforehand. You can be “saved”, but that doens’t mean you get a free pass into the afterlife. Unless, I guess, that’s what your sect of Christianity teaches. I would say that’s still a fairly uncertain hope. I think heaven for most people is a good thought to put into their heads in a world so often filled with tragedy and sorrow. It’s easier to cope when someone dies by believing you can see them again in heaven. That doesn’t make it any more realisitic to me.
on April 19th, 2006 at 5:20 pm
That first comment was very threatening. What can we think about all those bible-readers who think they can threaten people whenever thay want? When i read it I was disgusted to the bone.
1.What is your religion?
Atheist
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
17 years
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
Studying history and observing nature.
4. What do you do for a living?
Physician
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
Subspecialty of Internal Medicine
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
The more education, the less mythology and superstition
on April 19th, 2006 at 5:28 pm
To answer your question about what i saw in my parents is this…
When i was young my parents would drag me to these conferences and all i wanted to do was go home. but at some point in time during one of the many conferences i noticed that my parents were up front being prayed for and all and i saw them begin to cry and fall to the ground and all and then afterwords they would be the most joyful thing i have ever saw and i wanted that joy and all so i asked for Jesus to come into my heart and He’s stayed ever since.
Next question, can i get the same fulfillment without going to church?
i dont think so. like when i get far away from God (aka not spending time with Him just talking and such) i felt so disconnected and cant think straight and couldn’t pay attention and all that stuff. but then when i spend time with Him, i would feel happy and i could think, i am just a really really cheerful person when i spend time with Him.
final question, walking away things got worse, coincidence?
No, cause when i walked away, i allowed Satan to have a foothold in my life for that time being and all and he knew all my weakest points and i just felt horrible and when i told Jesus “Can You just forget that i walked away?” (not in those words but thats pretty much what i asked) and after that i was getting happier and happier and things have been getting eaiser for me and i dont know its just AWESOME. so yea…
Hope these answered your questions… if not then well just tell me haha… cya
on April 19th, 2006 at 6:59 pm
1. What is your religion?
Atheist.
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
About 3 years. Before that, I was a “liberal” Christian.
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
Education at college. I took classes in biology, evolution, anthropology and philosophy. I came to realize my “religious knowledge” wasn’t knowledge at all, since it conflicted with established science and history.
4. What do you do for a living?
Write for a magazine.
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
College graduate, summa cum laude.
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
Nothing really. Just that nature’s laws cannot be “turned off” when discussing The Resurrection or something similarly impossible. If an alleged event violates nature’s laws, it didn’t happen.
on April 19th, 2006 at 10:00 pm
Just wanted to tell everyone that I am keeping up on the comments but I haven’t really had the time to sit down and respond to everyone. It’s spring break here. :-)
I do want to say that I am LOVING the fact that we are all being open, honest and KIND in these comments. Great job all around.
Oh, and to “Condamn you” - I’ll just let that one slide because it’s too funny and I don’t think that anyone was actually offended by being called an “anti-Christ.”
Keep up the conversation! I’ve learned a lot about the “feeling” that Christians experience, and I’ve also learned that I am the only one who didn’t freaking go to college. LOL! Oh, except for the one who condamns us. Probably…
on April 19th, 2006 at 10:22 pm
First timer. Why do people care so much about religion? I don’t understand, if we weren’t created/designed then we are here by chance/no meaning to life. We can’t prove that God doesn’t exist or exist. Christians are either fools for believing or they are right, period! I don’t know where I stand but for some reason every religion(that includes atheists) is threatend by christianity. The funny thing is that atheist don’t want christians/their God to have any place in America but the religion of atheism is trying to do the samething, by having their atheism religious thinking all over America. But I find that kinda amusing. If those christians are right, then I better try to have a full life, for this is the only world we have to look forward too. I don’t know if I should be sad or not but people START ENJOYING EVERY MINUTE OF YOUR LIFE.
on April 19th, 2006 at 10:34 pm
“I don’t know where I stand but for some reason every religion(that includes atheists [no, atheism means lack of religion –RR]) is threatend by christianity. The funny thing is that atheist [sic] don’t want christians/their God to have any place in America but the religion of atheism [*cough* –RR] is trying to do the samething [sic], by having their atheism religious thinking all over America.”
Actually I’d be perfectly happy to let people do whatever they want religiously as long as they keep me out of it and don’t use my tax dollars to cram it down my and others’ throats. It doesn’t mean I’d agree with them, but the key thing is separation of church and state. What a lot of Christians don’t realize is that it’s the very separation of church and state they wish to ignore that lets them practice the way they want to. But as long as the government is endorsing their point of view, well that’s okay.
I already do enjoy every moment of my life. The present is the only time that I have, because the past is gone and the future hasn’t happened yet. I try all the time to be present in the Now.
on April 19th, 2006 at 11:11 pm
RR, Right on. You said it.
Anonymous, I don’t know any athiests who feel threatened by Christianity. Most non believers I know are the most tolerant overall of peoples right to believe what they choose. Instead, I think what RR said, is exactly what many athiests, nonbelievers, agnostics, moderates, jews & plenty of others feel. This isn’t about feeling that there is no place in America for Christians, most will agree, I think, that there is room for all of us. It is simply that the church does not belong in our government. A government without the church is not an athiest government. It is a government that allows everyone to practice their own faith. If the church is influencing our laws, then it is inevitable that the rights of those of different faith will be trampled on.
on April 19th, 2006 at 11:29 pm
1. What is your religion?
I prefer no religion/ no label, but for this - an Atheist.
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs? I have recently accepted it, but my husband will tell you that I have been this way for a very long time. He has known me for 10 years.
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs. I as a child believed, but why would “God” not answer my prayers. As a teenager I wanted to believe, but due to events of my life the illusion of something greater than myself I questioned. As a young adult higher education made me realize that there was a reason for the “Gods/God” system. Now as an adult, I have an understanding as to why I rejected “Gods/God”, and had always struggled with the whole belief process. I embrace being a “thinking” person. I do not need someone or something to tell me how to be good, what is right, what is wrong. I could easily go off here and just rant for pages but that would not be appropriate. My instinct has always led me in life, it was the notion of “God” that led me astray. To actually think that something was protecting me, looking out for my best interest. Sorry no heartfelt religious stories here folks.
4. What do you do for a living? I work for a bank.
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
College (did not finish ran out of money) and life.
6. Anything else relevant to the conversation that you think might be important. I wish that folks who think differently could see what I have seen, been to the places I’ve been, could meet the people I’ve met, feel the things I’ve felt. Then I think they would understand why it is so hard for me to buy into the hypocrisy. I have more tolerance than most folks I know. I respect the environment. I respect people who are different than me. I did not learn this from going to mass but from my parents, family, friends, associates and many others. The thing I learned the most was How “NOTâ€Â? to act towards another human or living thing.
I do not live in order to die.
on April 19th, 2006 at 11:49 pm
This is an awesome topic. I wasn’t sure if I should join (the other day) but since there are so many here I think I will.
1. What is your religion?
Asetian
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
About 14 years
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
I began to question everything I was raised to believe. For instance, I couldn’t understand why god, if he was our “father” would put us in an oven (hell) to punish us. I couldn’t believe that we only have one chance to get it right. And why did I need a middleman to talk to god, anyway? So, I did a lot of inner searching, thinking, dreaming, etc, and here I am. Ok, there’s probably more, but this is the short version.
4. What do you do for a living?
I’m a mom.
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
I had two years of pre-law. Nothing more after that.
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
I am the only one on earth that practices my religion. How do I know? I completely made it up- well, the name anyway. I did that to annoy fundamental Pagans who say that the only real religion is an ancient religion. I added the “ian” part to annoy fundamental Christians who tell me I’m the devil’s servant and am going to hell.:)
Thanks for bringing this up, Cassandra. I really enjoyed reading everyone’s response.
on April 20th, 2006 at 1:56 am
1.I am a Christian first and foremost.
2.The beginning of my faith is not as important as the end of it.
3.To keep it simple, God saved me. Jesus Christ died in my place on a cross 2000 years ago and that’s why I believe.
4.I am a student of everything and am called to be a missionary.
5.I have a BA in Political Science and am working on a Masters of Divinity.
6.The most important thing to understand is that God is real. From the beginning of time, He has chosen ways to reveal Himself to all. However, His own creatures chose to disobey Him and were separated. Humans stand in need of reconciliation. The most overt of these revelations was in what is known as the incarnation. God became a man. He has reached out to His own and they did not know Him. He stated that He is the only means of salvation and eternal life. Therefore, He is either telling the truth and should be worshiped, He is a madman and should be ignored, or He is a liar and should be scoffed. However, He does not leave the option for anyone to claim His teachings to be good morals or good values. He never intended to leave such an option available. He validated His truth by returning to life physically after His death to reconcile humankind to God. If this is not the truth, then the Apostles were maniacs because each and every one of them believed Him to their own deaths (except one who was exiled and placed in a vat of boiling water) and no man dies for a known lie. His Kingdom is at hand and He is humanity’s hope. He will return and establish His reign forever. At His Name every knee will bow and every tongue will confess (this includes you even if you think you are an atheist) that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
6B. Therefore, the only thing that is important on this earth is to be found in Jesus of Nazareth. Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. By His stripes, we are healed.
Many will not understand this and will say I’m too preachy. That’s okay. The Holy Spirit speaks through the Gospel plainly spoken and effectively calls all who will believe.
Peace to you all,
Jason Doty
on April 20th, 2006 at 3:03 am
RR, That’s how I feel about my tax dollars being used to cram “evolution”, an unproven theory, down the throats of our school children.
Sandra, but a government that didn’t believe in God would be an athiestic government and they haven’t had a good track record have they? It was basically a God fearing group of men who formed our great government and wrote our constitution. Throughout the development of our country in to a world superpower, our country basically followed a judeo-christian value system. Now that seems to be waning and meanwhile so is our signifigance in the world and possibly our position as the worlds only superpower (its a fragile thing and we find ourselves standing on very thin ice). Is this a coincidence? As our government begins to embrace and protect lifestyles that go against the judeo-christian ethic, we seem to be loosing ourselves and our way in the world scene.
It wasn’t only the philosophy of the judeo-christian work ethic and lifestyle that made us great–It was also God’s blessing on a nation that honored Him! If as a nation we turn our backs on God, He will turn His back on us.
on April 20th, 2006 at 3:42 am
Hi all,
Prophecy was one of the areas of my interest that God used to reach me. I found this interesting article online:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49826
What is truth?
on April 20th, 2006 at 7:51 am
Mueleski:
“That’s how I feel about my tax dollars being used to cram “evolution”, an unproven theory, down the throats of our school children.”
Actually, that evolution occurs is a fact. Otherwise we wouldn’t be worried about antibiotic-resistant bacteria and mutating bird flu. As to evolution via natural selection from basic chemicals to humans, well, all of the evidence we have points to it, and so that’s what belongs in science class. Teaching children that god created Adam and Eve belongs in church, not in school.
As to our country, please read some of the autobiographies of the people who wrote the constitution and established the country. They were very cautious about keeping religion out of the government. Most of them were Deists or closet atheists, and even if they were Christian, they didn’t have a high opinion of the church.
“It wasn’t only the philosophy of the judeo-christian work ethic and lifestyle that made us great–It was also God’s blessing on a nation that honored Him! If as a nation we turn our backs on God, He will turn His back on us.”
Actually, it was an embrace of free-market capitalism and a desire to keep monarchs and God out of the government.
on April 20th, 2006 at 7:55 am
I should add that as we turn more to God (see: George W. Bush) we seem to be getting ourselves in more trouble.
on April 20th, 2006 at 8:59 am
RR–thank you for summing that up quite nicely.
For Jason Doty: “Many will not understand this and will say I’m too preachy. That’s okay. The Holy Spirit speaks through the Gospel plainly spoken and effectively calls all who will believe.”
So apparently, since this doesn’t speak to me, I’m not one of those who “will” believe. This is extremely circular logic and it’s also predestination (one and the same??). I don’t understand why Christians are using the tack of explaining their basic beliefs to us since most of us already know them. We didn’t grow up ignorant of Christianity–it’s the dominant religion. Most of us atheists were in one sect or another before we came out of religion. We already know about the cross bit. Saying it more slowly doesn’t mean it’s more effective.
Two more things. I noticed that what Nicholas posted about his parents/his experience seems a lot like euphoria from a drug. A mental state of excitement that leads into withdrawals (called “Satan” in his post) when they stop going around for the experience. This is not to insult Nicholas. But you could substitute the drug “ecstasy” there and see the same thing. What’s the difference?
The last thing is a slight pet peeve of mine. “Judeo-Christian” is a massive misnomer. The “Judeo” part is a completely separate religion that views itself as NOT lacking for not having the New Testament, “new” rules, etc. The Jews are not simply background, old religion for Christians to come from as the newer better religion. Yet, this is often how it’s used. You don’t take time off as Christians for the Jewish holdiays in your “Judeo” label. Stop throwing it around. It’s “Christian” plain and simple.
on April 20th, 2006 at 11:39 am
Muleski, you said this: “It wasn’t only the philosophy of the judeo-christian work ethic and lifestyle that made us great–It was also God’s blessing on a nation that honored Him! If as a nation we turn our backs on God, He will turn His back on us.”
Contemplator already addressed the “Judeo-Christian” moniker, so I’ll leave that alone. (Does anyone know when we first started seeing/hearing this combination on a regular basis? Seems it was fairly recently.)
Regarding the blessings of God on our nation. This is one of my own pet peeves. I want to know just when God got his American citizenship? Did Jesus wrap himself in the flag? More to the point: by claiming that God rewards and punishes NATIONS you turn Him into nothing more than a primitive tribal deity (which He is, of course…). Doesn’t the Christian religion teach that God judges individual human hearts and has personal relationships with each of them? Then how is it that He ignores the individuals in favor of manmade national boundaries? And what is this nonsense about rewards and punishments in THIS life? Isn’t the afterlife when we are to receive those by either going to heaven or hell?
on April 20th, 2006 at 11:40 am
Mueleski- I don’t think of the government as “believing in God”. Our government is made up of US citizens, including all kinds of beliefs. Because it is representing citizens of multiple faiths, allowing any of those religions to dictate laws and decisions that effect all of us is wrong. This is according to the constititution written by some of those God fearing men you mention.
“If as a nation we turn our backs on God, He will turn His back on us.”
So the rest of us should just go along with Christian influenced decisions regarding our country. We should assume that for the sake of our country and God’s blessing that ultimately you’re the one who is right about it? I wonder how you would feel about it if the government was mostly Jewish or Muslim. They believe in God. If they started allowing their beliefs to influence their decisions that effect you, would you think we were “turning our backs on God” since these choices may look different than the Christian faith dictates?
It is possible to do the “right” thing, to make choices based on basic human rights and to be moral, good human beings without Christianity. Most of us naturally strive to be this way. The basic tenets of most religions, not just Christianity, are based on these things.
“As our government begins to embrace and protect lifestyles that go against the judeo-christian ethic…”
What did I miss? What are those lifestyles our government is embracing and protecting lately? Murderers and thieves? Or are we talking about people of other faiths, gay rights and womens rights?
So we are being punished by God now finally, for allowing non Christian ethics oriented lifestyles?
Could it possibly be that our administration has simply made a handful of poor choices that slid us out onto that thin ice?
on April 20th, 2006 at 12:08 pm
Yes, I agree I shouldn’t have said Atheists in general but some feel threatend. My apologizes. Christian=belief in God, Atheist=belief in no god. So how come atheism isnt considered a religion,RR? Everyone has a religion/belief. A country doesnt get weaker bc of enemies from the outside, but inside,from us. Rome didnt collapse bc of their enemies, but bc of what went on inside. And the samething is happening to America.As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he, a man is literally what he thinks, his character being the complete sum of all his thoughts. It’s not about who’s president or not, its about us the people. I read some atheist saying:atheists are most tolerant overall of peoples right to believe what they choose. That is what is getting America in trouble and corrupt and dont have a moral stance in things. As the more Christian-dominated consensus from the past weakens, the majority of people adopt two impoverish values: 1)Personal peace=just to be left alone, not to be troubled by the troubles of other people, to live one’s life with minimal possibilities of being personally disturbed. and Affluence=a life made up of things, things, and more things, a success judged by a level of material abundance.You cant deny that our forefather’s had a religious foundation and the people around them also had it too. But now in our time its dissapearing rapidly. Oh I understand why atheists dont believe in a God, like me who wants to be told how to live and what rules to follow from someone who i cant see or touch. But i guess thats where faith comes in. Just like having faith that there is no God. Yes some christians go the wrong way at telling people their beliefs, like you going to hell if you dont beleive. But theres always some people who ruin something, but thats in every category, including every other religion. The important thing is to find the right person to have a good meaningful conversation. Like me i sometimes judge a group of people bc of one bad incident but i know i shouldnt do that. This is a cool post, i like talking about religion and what others believe, its a learning experience. For people whos atheists can i suggest a book? Francis Schaeffer: How should we then live? its about the rise and decline of western thought and culture. for people who enjoy reading history. If you guys have any reading suggestions please tell me. I enjoy reading different topics. thanks.
on April 20th, 2006 at 12:46 pm
Anonymous, you said: So how come atheism isnt considered a religion,RR? Everyone has a religion/belief.
“Belief” is not synonymous with “religion”. And, no, not everyone has a religion. I don’t. Let me ask you… does the fact that I don’t have any belief in alien abductions make that my religion? No? What about my lack of belief in invisible penquins? Then why would a lack of a belief in a god make that a religion?
It looks to me like you are caught in a web of dualism. There are more than two choices, more than “Christian values” or rampant immorality, more than altruism or self-centered greed. Humans are more complex than that. Life is not black and white.
People have been complaining about the downfall of society since words were first written, and most likely since stories were first told. It seems to be human nature to believe that only in an earlier time, either in recent decades or previous centuries, or eons ago, were morals intact and society was strong. People have always been people. We are no different now.
on April 20th, 2006 at 1:55 pm
The only thing that unites atheists is a non belief in a god. That’s it. We have no secret rituals, no core issues we vote on as a block…unless that was covered in the So You Want To Be An Atheist handbook, and I didn’t read that part. It’s just a label that comes in handy sometimes.
I’m sick of hearing about how society is being ruined and how we have to “go back” to some mythical time when everyone thought and acted with one purpose. Didn’t exist. And what time period would THAT be?? When we had no rights for women and blacks were slaves and we imported Chinese people as indentured servants??
Michelle and Sandra, awesome coverage of topics!
on April 20th, 2006 at 2:15 pm
“Christians are either fools for believing or they are right, period!”
I’m glad someone is willing to admit this. I submit myself and every other Christian to be held up to this scrutiny: If Jesus is what he says he is, every non-Christian is living in separation from God. If he is not, then every Christian is a complete idiot. There is no middle ground. I find it actually refreshing to hear comments from atheists, because they don’t feel the need to soften the blow with some fuzzy inclusivity, much like pantheists and pagans that I normally dialogue with. Scrutinize Jesus’ words: he didn’t leave room for “many paths to one destination.” So either I’m living a lie and it’s not OK, or everyone else is.
on April 20th, 2006 at 2:27 pm
“It is simply that the church does not belong in our government. A government without the church is not an athiest government. It is a government that allows everyone to practice their own faith.”
Cassandra is absolutely right. I think if American Christians got serious about becoming like Jesus, you would see a lot less of Pat Robertson-esque heavy-handed religion peddling, and more humble service. The Bible dictates the church’s role in gov’t, and it’s not to infiltrate it and homogenize everyone’s morality. It’s be a prophetic voice of correction and moral scrutiny for its policies and motives, and an example of service and love– from the outside.
Specifically concerning the issue of prayer in schools: As a Christian, I definitely do not want faith/religion/offical prayer in my kids’ public schools. I don’t really understand why any Christian would. God knows what the administration would try to fill their little heads with. That kind of training is the parents’ prerogative only.
on April 20th, 2006 at 2:31 pm
I didn’t mean for that last comment to be Anonymous. That was me.
on April 20th, 2006 at 2:39 pm
1. What is your religion? I was agnostic for many years, then Episcopalian, now… I just don’t know any more. Probably atheist, but I’m interested in the Ethical Culture society. Anyone familiar with them?
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs? Agnostic - first 20-odd years of my life, Episcopalian - 8 years, unsure - last 3 months
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs. My immediate family is agnostic but I was sent to Catholic school for a myriad of reasons (including the fact that it was the least physically dangerous school compared to local public schools). I HATED Catholic school and avoided religion in general for years. In my late 20’s I felt pulled toward the Episcopal church out of a need for community, belonging, and a hope that my persistant anxiety and depression could be salved (no, not ’saved’ - salved) if I could only have faith in a god. I truly wanted to believe, even though in my heard I simply didn’t. “Act as if ye have faith, and faith will be granted ye” - I’m unsure of the origin of this quote, but this is what I mean when I say I wanted to believe. I respected the local Episcopal church and its’ open-minded approach to other beliefs, and I loved that the majority of the cogregation were thoughtful, highly educated people. But as the years have gone on, and I have read more and more of the bible and tried to ‘act as if’ - praying, studying scripture, taking bible study and theology classes - I have to admit that I just don’t believe it. Any of it. It simply makes no sense to me. I feel very very sad about this, not because I feel like I’ve lost god, but rather that I have to give up on a fairy tale and try to tackle my issues and problems without some kind of supernatural help. And since so many of my own attempts have failed, I feel at a loss as to what I can do to truly ’save’ myself.
4. What do you do for a living?
I am a college administrator and a mother of 2 small children.
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing. College.
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important. I find this ‘game’, as well as the rather heated discussions over at the ‘war on easter’, to be very interesting - although sometimes infuriating. One thing that has always angered me is intolerance, especially when it is coupled with arrogance and sense of mean-spiritedness (is that a word? hmmm…) I must say that the whole ‘war on easter’ thing strikes me that way… then again, I kind of see their point… as you can see, I’m kind of going through a ‘thing’ right now.
on April 20th, 2006 at 2:43 pm
Wow, now that I posted that I see it’s freakin’ long - sorry about that!
on April 20th, 2006 at 2:59 pm
Anonymous-you said:
“Oh I understand why atheists dont believe in a God, like me who wants to be told how to live and what rules to follow from someone who i cant see or touch.”
I think you would be v e r y hard pressed to find and Athiest reason for not believing is that they don’t want to be told what rules to follow by someone they can’t see or touch.
I won’t presume to speak for all athiests, but as for myself, I don’t NEED to be told how to behave. I know what the difference between right and wrong is. I don’t believe in God because it has not been proven to me scientifically. I don’t subscribe to the notion that because it is written in the bible that it simply is.
Cassandra-It looks like your spring break has allowed your blog to be hijacked! Thanks for hosting this stimulating and thought provoking conversation.
on April 20th, 2006 at 2:59 pm
Can you lookup those two definitions?
why does someones belief in a God is their religion? But someone without belief in a God is not a religion?
If you lookup religion I guess depends on ur dictionary the 4th definition is= 4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
I think that fits with everything we are arguing about. Michelle I’m not saying your wrong just tryin to do the samthing as u.
You can say that ur 100% certain that theres more than one or even 2 choices? What if life is really meant to be white and black, i’m talking about important stuff like what we’re talkin about. But we humans decided to add green, purple, gray, yellow etc? What u said about me being dualism is that a fair statement? Bc like me i know that ur not 100% sure. its not like we’re talking about the sun or clouds that u and I can see. Yes people have been talkin about the downfall of humans, but the most important thing to see and study is WHY they fell.and im sure if u study carefully theres always a similar story. I do respect your thoughts and feelings toward this issue.
on April 20th, 2006 at 4:52 pm
Rome didnt collapse bc of their enemies, but bc of what went on inside.
Interestingly enough Rome’s collapse seemed to coincide with Constatine’s adoption of Christianity. Something to think about…hmmm
on April 20th, 2006 at 4:53 pm
Rome didnt collapse bc of their enemies, but bc of what went on inside.
Interestingly enough Rome’s collapse seemed to coincide with Constatine’s adoption of Christianity. Something to think about…hmmm
**this didn’t show up the first time I posted it, so if it becomes a double post I apologize.
on April 20th, 2006 at 5:24 pm
anonymous said: “If you lookup religion I guess depends on ur dictionary the 4th definition is= 4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
I think that fits with everything we are arguing about.”
You really really want to think about this one. Because if you choose to accept this definition, it means that my devotion to the cause of fighting illiteracy and my love of baby whales are both two religions. And anything else anyone is passionate about becomes a religion. So I guess the Democratic and Republican parties are now both religions. If I “believe” I’m going to get up in the morning after going to sleep, is that a religion? I’m not arguing that you shouldn’t look in the dictionary, but it’s the 4th definition for a reason. You’re trying to argue that philisophical beliefs are religions. They’re not. That would make the belief in free markets a religion. Surely you don’t think all those other things are religions, too?
“What if life is really meant to be white and black, i’m talking about important stuff like what we’re talkin about. But we humans decided to add green, purple, gray, yellow etc?”
This is gobbledygook. If life was really “meant” to be black and white, but humans somehow added more colors to the scheme, what does that say about God? Is he so puny he can’t make it clear? And before you holler “It IS clear to me,” remember you are subscribing to a religion with an enormous amount of sects to it that don’t believe the same way. So why should we think you in particular understand it when there are hundreds of thousands of churches with their own particular take on it?
“Bc like me i know that ur not 100% sure. its not like we’re talking about the sun or clouds that u and I can see.”
This in no way implies that we should believe in God just “because”. We can’t see gravity. But we know it’s there. We can determine when it works and when it doesn’t. You can’t see atoms, or electrons, or particles in space or black holes, but we know they’re there. They are scientifically demonstrable. I can’t see God. God makes no sense. His book is filled with contradictions. His followers can’t get it straight and make a hell of a lot of “operator errors” that they get to chalk up to “human infallibility”. God is not scientifically demonstrable. And don’t DARE throw up Intelligent Design, there’s not one shred of evidence for it.
on April 20th, 2006 at 5:25 pm
Anna–my sister is going through the same thing after being raised fundamentalist. The only sure thing I can tell you is to keep asking, keep reading, keep questioning and keep thinking, and you will become less uncomfortable and more sure in what you are after. Life makes a lot more sense as an atheist :) .
on April 20th, 2006 at 5:38 pm
Cassandra-It looks like your spring break has allowed your blog to be hijacked! Thanks for hosting this stimulating and thought provoking conversation.
No shit!! LOL, I honestly wasn’t prepared for all of the comments!! There’s no way I can keep up with this, so I apologize for starting it and then bailing! My inbox is completely flooded with notices of comments.
But there is a lot of great conversation going on. I’m thrilled.
:-)
on April 20th, 2006 at 6:04 pm
you cant prove there is no God and cant prove there is a God. so where does that leave us? but the one thing is for sure, we will one day findout when we die but the sad thing is it would be too late to change. we can argue about this till our face is purple and it wouldnt get us anywhere.
on April 20th, 2006 at 6:31 pm
Aaron–so you’re saying we shouldn’t bother talking about things? That seems to be a rather defeatist attitude. And many atheists would disagree about not being able to prove God doens’t exist. I think instead, it’s more about what a person is willing to listen to and look at, or will they write off evidence as being “Devils work”.
And by the way, if you die and it turns out to be what atheists think, I guess you’ll never know the difference, huh?
on April 20th, 2006 at 6:40 pm
Contemplator, yeah those are some good points. I don’t think about this stuff too much, just said what came to my head at the moment. I dont have the time to study all this stuff. But its cool that u have the drive to think about it and write about what i said:)I understand why u believe those things and its cool, at least u believe in something and think about it. yeah i dont know what to think about this stuff.i just like to get people heated up a little haha
on April 20th, 2006 at 7:13 pm
There’s something key that I think should be pointed out here.
If you say, “This is what I believe, and nothing could change it, period,” then there’s really nothing that can be discussed. I’m not trying to put anyone down — it’s just a simple fact. Once someone says that, two things can happen. One is that people get angry, and the other is that people shrug it off and go their separate ways. This is a major reason that discussions involving religion often turn nasty.
However, if people are really curious about exploring the basis of their faith, then some interesting conversation can occur. I applaud everyone for keeping this relatively civil so far, bu t it’s converging pretty quickly on an atheism vs. religion debate, albeit with some rather interesting sidetracks.
Thus, if you see someone espsousing a sure faith which can be neither considered nor refuted, I will advise you (and oh, if I always followed my own advice…) to steer clear of entering a discussion along that line.
on April 20th, 2006 at 8:27 pm
Contemplator,
I only stated the truth. If it appears to be circular logic, I apologize. However, your logic is also circular. You would say, “I don’t believe in God because there is no evidence.” Then, you would say in the next breath, “I do not believe any evidence because I know there is no God.” The prophet Isaiah was told by God to tell the children of Israel, “Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive… lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.” This is the same reason why Jesus spoke in parables because those who would understand would follow Him, but to those who did not, the truth would not be revealed. If this unbelief describes you, then your ears are deaf because you want them to be so. “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
on April 20th, 2006 at 9:32 pm
Contemplator,
Life makes alot more sense as an atheist? We die and go nowhere? Where is the purpose?
on April 20th, 2006 at 9:53 pm
Life makes alot more sense as an atheist? We die and go nowhere? Where is the purpose?
The purpose is right here in front of us. Our family, our friends, our planet.
My children are my purpose.
What is the purpose of a plant (other than providing oxygen)? To die and go nowhere? Or to add beauty to life here and now. We should all strive for the same: to be as beautiful as a flower while we are in bloom, and not to live for after we wilt and die.
Hmmmm…. I’ve honestly never really thought things like that before. It just kind of flowed out of my fingers. I like it. I have the yellow double tulips in my front yard on my mind. :-)
on April 20th, 2006 at 10:07 pm
Jason Doty said: “I only stated the truth.”
As you think you see it. I don’t find it to be true.
“you would say in the next breath, “I do not believe any evidence because I know there is no God.”
I haven’t said this. No other atheist here has either. I think some of us are waiting with baited breath for your “evidence”. You haven’t put any out. You’ve quoted scripture, which I already know. I highly doubt you credit any evolutionary evidence. Isn’t this the pot calling the kettle black?
“This is the same reason why Jesus spoke in parables because those who would understand would follow Him, but to those who did not, the truth would not be revealed.”
So, those who are predestined to figure out Jesus’ riddles are safe, and the other ones are kept in the dark? Sounds great. And here I thought he came for everybody’s sins. Guess that’s one more contradiction to deal with.
Kerry Davis: Yes. It makes a lot more sense than believing that some thundering murderous incest permitting Old Testament god holds the keys to some illusory maybe you’ll get it maybe you won’t afterlife.
Yes. You die and go nowhere. Where everything else goes when it dies. What exactly are you going to be doing in heaven, anyway? Has anyone bothered to reveal that? That’s more imaginary than the natural processes any grade schooler can witness with his own eyes. That makes a lot more sense. Tell me what it is you’re going to be doing in the afterlife. Show me how it isn’t more nonsensical than believing you get 40 virgins in heaven for being a martyr?
The purpose is existence. There isn’t any other purpose. Why do you need a god to have a purpose? Or at the least something constructive to do? Isn’t that the ultimate crutch, not having any way of coming up with purpose in your own brain and having to rely on myths for good feelings and something to do?
on April 20th, 2006 at 10:08 pm
“What is the purpose of a plant (other than providing oxygen)? To die and go nowhere? Or to add beauty to life here and now. We should all strive for the same: to be as beautiful as a flower while we are in bloom, and not to live for after we wilt and die.”
Yeah, what she said.
on April 20th, 2006 at 10:19 pm
Contemplator,
Sorry for the abrupt nature of my question above. I am simply very interested in your answer?
Anna, and anyone else who has experienced frustration in their church experience, may I suggest finding one that honors the person of the Holy Spirit. I mention this because I have not heard Him mentioned in any of the church experiences that people have had that were unfulfilling. The Holy Spirit and His words are the only things Jesus left people in order to know him. If your church experience does not honor that, then I can understand your frustrations even in light of other good things that might occur in any given church. Jesus said, “If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever — the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.” If you are interested in finding a church like this, tell me your town, and I may be able to point you to a few to check out and some books that could answer your questions.
on April 20th, 2006 at 10:20 pm
“Life is without meaning. You bring the meaning to it. The meaning of life is Whatever you ascribe it to be. Being alive is the meaning.â€� Joseph Campbell
on April 20th, 2006 at 10:25 pm
Since the topic of books have come up, I highly recommend Carl Sagan’s “The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark” and Sam Harris’s “The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason”.
on April 20th, 2006 at 10:34 pm
1. What is your religion?
Christian
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
13 years
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
Well, i am a really chatty person, so ill try to make it as short as i can:)
You all seem to know my amazing dad, Kerry.. so i will start with that.
At 2 my parents divorced. It is crazy how fast one grows up when their life gets turned upside down. I always remember singing about Jesus because my maternal grandma taught me songs(dad did not like that much) But once the parents split I was immediately forced to live this life switching houses and spending lots of time with my dads mom. Dad was not around so much but when he became a Christian, i remember the change that happened in him. I was close to 3 and I can still remember my fathers face changed. That sounds insane but it’s true. That
s when my dad became my best friend. and his love for Jesus became something i wanted. Wheni was 4 i began to understand who God was and that He made me.
My dad was not the best guy before he found Jesus… and even at such a young age i remember that.
But this is about me not my dad. I grew up hearing the bible stories getting excited about scripture… and i really loved who God was. the idea of God was amazing to me and i loved having the comfort in the Creator of the universe being on my side.
Now I am in high school, graduating in a year, and my relationship with God is my everything. I learned what it meant to forgive people who have hurt me, and for God to change my heart towards them, and not love them because i have to but because God promises that He will work out all the crap that has happened… to be turned into good.
Personally, my walk with Christ was not “an experience” it has become a lifestyle, something to live for:) God has proved Himself faithful in my life and worked all the crazy not mentioned stuff in my childhood for good, not by chance because mere chance could not know me the way God does.
4. What do you do for a living?
Student:) Helping underprivledged kids in the summer
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
Sure im interested, junior in high school
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
If ya have a bad daddy it’s real hard to believe in God
on April 20th, 2006 at 10:42 pm
Cassandra,
I’ve been holding off on joining these conversations, but your response to the purpose of life really intrigued me.
I’m also currently a stay at home mother. I have a graduate degree. I have been a follower of Jesus for 25 years after having rejecting my family’s Christian faith. Theirs was a very vibrant, loving, logical (my dad came to Christ in his early 50s when he was a top executive a Fortune 500 company with a graduate degree in engineering — he made sure it was very logical and well grounded). But I rejected it because of what I knew what it would require of me — selflessness — and I wanted to do my own thing — without anyone telling me what to do. I got what I wanted. Succeeded at all I had hoped and it was not enough — I was empty. Since God’s abundant reaching out to me in love, I have found great fulfillment even in desperate circumstances. My mind has been challenged and blessed beyond my wildest imagining. I’ve also been medically diagnosed as being supernaturally healed of two maladies. The doctors were not Christians but had no other explanation.
That’s who I am. Now for your statement of purpose.
In many ways I agree with you. Christ calls us to love our neighbors as ourself and to pray “your kingdom come your will be done on earth as it is in heaven” He wants to restore the beauty of life before it was corrupted by sin or evil. He even says “bloom where you are planted.” So I would agree with you there.
What we have here is simply a taste of what is to come.
I guess I would ask though if we all just dissolve to nothingness then where is justice? Does Hitler get the same fate as your beautiful child? If so, where is the purpose in that?
on April 20th, 2006 at 11:49 pm
Some things I’ve noticed:
“If ya have a bad daddy it’s real hard to believe in God”
I had a great daddy. I still don’t believe in God. Don’t assume that it takes certain kinds of experiences to become atheistic.
“Sorry for the abrupt nature of my question above. I am simply very interested in your answer?”
Kerry, I don’t find abrupt questions to be rude. And I did answer your questions, but I also noticed you didn’t answer any of mine. I’m very curious to know what you think is going to happen when you get to heaven.
“I guess I would ask though if we all just dissolve to nothingness then where is justice? Does Hitler get the same fate as your beautiful child? If so, where is the purpose in that?”
Cassandra, this is what we were posting about some entries ago. Some people need to believe in a hell and a heaven simply because they want justice or purpose or revenge. Here’s more proof of that. It’s hard for people to believe that justice can be carried out by anyone other than a god. Not so different from most other tribal religions, really.
They can’t stand that Hitler and your child will both just dissolve into dust upon death. Even though their own Bible says “The wages sin pays is death”, not “death and then eternal torment for what they did”, they want more.
It’s easier to swallow knowing that maniacs run loose if you think they’ll get their cosmic justice in the end after all. Hitler’s actions were a tragedy. Learn from the mistakes nations made in dealing with him and his mentality. Then don’t make that same mistake again. THAT’S the purpose, for heaven’s sakes. No pun intended.
on April 20th, 2006 at 11:56 pm
Contemplator,
“Figures don’t lie but liars will figure” You can take facts and turn them any way to say what you believe. You can point me to evidence, I can point you to evidence but if we are just looking for evidence taht agrees with our point of view it is like a game of tic tac toe - if you have two people who now how to play the game it is impossible to win.
You said “some thundering murderous incest permitting Old Testament god.” I don’t remember sin being Gods idea.
You continue to bring up predestination and seem to be particularly angry when you talk about it. I guess I can see why if that was the only message in the Bible. Jesus wept over Jeresulem because they did not recognize the time of his coming. He desires that all would come to know Him. He came to save the world not to condemn it. He loves you and wants you to come to know Him. We have a free will. we are not robots and I am thankful for it.
What are we going to do in heaven? Before I met God I thought we would just hang around a bunch of old people and tell the same old stories - kinda like a family reunion that never ended. Yuk!
My friendship with God is the most amazing thing. I could hang out with Him forever and never get bored. Plus I get to be with all my buddies (hopefully you and Cassandra among others) Not only that there won’t be any sin - no more betrayal, no more insecurity, no more death or crying or pain. What is not to like about that?
Ultimately I need God to have a purpose because of death. What do you say to a parent who has lost an infant. He had a great giggle, It was great while it lasted? You have the memories?
There is no hope of reunion? He bloomed for two months?
on April 21st, 2006 at 12:00 am
Contemplator,
You have had some really juicy insight but your last tag sounded really angry. I appreciate your honesty and I think I’m beginning to understand the emotion behind your questions. I’ll give a stab at answering your questions, but before I do, I would like to ask your recommendations on some books with very logical explanations for atheism. I would like to read them. In return, I would like to challenge you to read three books by Pulitzer-prize winning legal affairs correspondent for the Chicago Sun Tribune Lee Strobel, who has a Yale law degree. The Case for the Creator: looks at breakthroughs in astronomy, physics, cosmology, biochemistry, biology and brain development by some non-Christian scientists. The second is The Case for Christ which compares the historical evidence for Christ, His claims, and the Bible to other historical figures of that time and other literary works such as The Illiad and Odyssey. The third is the Case for Faith which interviews top philosophers on matters of Faith. Then let’s talk some more. What do you think?
You had two questions I would like to answer now. One is what will we do in heaven? Excellent. I think the church has been historically weak on that one. Yes the Bible has not detailed it explicity. However, logically there is much to deduce. One as a believer, we are taught to pray “thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” We will not experience that all here - and it does not imply a Christiian government which many have got wrong — man of Jesus’ disciples got that wrong. They thought he would overthrow Rome. Wrong. He said my kingdom is not of this world. But how we live today gives us a taste of what we do in heaven. You for example have an excellent mind. It will be able to explore untold wonders and arguments. And you will be able to discuss them with some of the greatest minds in history. The beauty will blow your socks off and you’ll help maintain it. You know Adam and Eve worked in the garden even before sin entered the picture. So whatever you work at here that brings fulfillment you will do there. Have you ever screwed someone you loved? You will be able to love perfectly, care for them, enjoy them. You said “show me how it isn’t more nonsensical than believing you get 40 virgins in heaven for being a martyr? I’ve always thought it sure doesn’t sound like heaven for the 40 virgins! I honestly have not researched in-depth what we will do in heaven. But an interesting read is “Heaven” by Joni Erickson Tada. She does a thought-provoking job.
You also asked Why do you need a god to have a purpose? Well, if there is no God setting the agenda/or purpose, then whose purpose is legit? Who decides. You could argue that someone raping me or my little children has as much purpose in what he is doing than as what you or I see as our purpose. Someone might argue, right and wrong determines the purpose. But then who determines what is right and wrong? Let me know what you think?
I’ll also think a bit more on some other non-inflammatory sources regarding these philosophical issues.
You also asked about predestination and the contradiction. Well, God if he is all-powerful and all-knowing, which if he is not, then he can’t be The God, can hold to seemingly contradictions in tension. I’ll try my best to explain.
From his viewpoint (all knowing) he knows the end of the story. He knows what happens to everyone and how they will choose. But from our vantage point (players in the story) we only get to choose the end of our story.
What do you think?
Really want to hear from you.
on April 21st, 2006 at 12:14 am
Contemplator,
In response to my question to Cassandra, you said, “It’s hard for people to believe that justice can be carried out by anyone other than God? Who then carried out justice for Hitler? Also, do we tell the victims of the Holocost that what they suffered was so that we could learn? Is that reasonable?! Is that sufficient?! I will ask my Jewish friends.
Contemplator, I have never responded to a blog before so I’m not used to others interrupting my conversations with someone. You addressed Çassandra about my questions, but you never addressed me. Instead, you placed me in the great “some people and they” I would really appreciate it if you address me personally about my questions to you or comments I have made. I really want to continue talking with you in a thought provoking dialogue not this.
on April 21st, 2006 at 12:51 am
Why is it that blunt questions are seen as hostile, rude or “not this” whatever this is? I have no “anger” toward predestination. I wasn’t raised with the belief and I find it rather silly, to be perfectly honest. And as far as pointing to evidence goes, well, I’ve still not seen any from the Christian camp. I think the “I’ll point to this and you’ll point to that” may apply for anecdotal evidence, i.e. you were touched by god, I was in the same situation and wasn’t touched by god, therefore we’re at a stalemate. But I’m asking for something other than anecdotal evidence, probably should’ve made that clear.
Also, regarding my comment about the Old Testament God–he allowed Lot to have incest with his daughters after Sodom and Gomorrah fell. Yet elsewhere in the OT he says it’s a punishable sin. There are plenty of other places in the OT where he permits the Isrealites to rape, enslave, wipe out children, etc. Yet in the New Testament, those “gentiles” are embraced. Pretty convenient. And pretty easy to find.
Kerry said: “You for example have an excellent mind.” Why thank you!
I like heaven as you describe it. But I don’t think you have anything to really base that on. You have no idea how heaven is run as a general rule, there’s is next to nothing about that in the Bible. Why don’t you think that could just be you embellishing what you would enjoy?
“From his viewpoint (all knowing) he knows the end of the story. He knows what happens to everyone and how they will choose. But from our vantage point (players in the story) we only get to choose the end of our story.”
Sorry to bring up the P(redestination) word again, but how exactly is this free will? If you freely choose, but he already knows how you’re going to choose, then you haven’t freely chose, have you? It’s already been written in the Book of Life.
on April 21st, 2006 at 1:04 am
Nancy: Just because you post something doesn’t generally mean that you’re the only person having the conversation. Cassandra and I had an exchange on her blog a few days ago about the nature of hell. It’s not interrupting. Unless that’s netiquette I didn’t get told about. I didn’t have any questions for you, which is why I didn’t ask.
“Have you ever screwed someone you loved?” Umm…in a good way or a bad way? Or have you been reading my blog (wink, wink)?
And whoops, I realize I put the predestination question you posed in Kerry’s response. Saw the “Davis” part and just spaced, I guess. The comments are getting lo o o ng.
“Who then carried out justice for Hitler? Also, do we tell the victims of the Holocost that what they suffered was so that we could learn? Is that reasonable?! Is that sufficient?! I will ask my Jewish friends.”
I think this is a bit of a red herring to the issue. You learn in spite of the suffering. And incidentally, why has God allowed human suffering to go on for so long? The general Christian response I get is “To let mankind LEARN that they cannot do without God.” So what’s the difference? I could pose the same question: Do we tell the people suffering all over the world from famine, war, disease etc. that they are suffering so that mankind LEARNS that they need God? I’ll go ask the people of the Sudan what they think.
Do I find what Hitler did appauling? Um, unequivocally YES. I don’t need anyone’s friends to tell me how bad it was. Don’t you think society can come up with a reasonable way of determining what rules it should live by? Plenty of societies without the christian god have.
But because they aren’t “perfect” doesn’t necessitate that you have to believe something out there IS perfect and can justify it. Life is sometimes terrible. That’s the unvarnished truth. Sometimes there is no justification. That’s also the unvarnished truth. I honestly think that’s why some people *want* hell to be true. To settle the score. No, it’s not a pretty picture to think that some people get away with bad things. It’s not pleasant or right. It also doesn’t prove God.
As far as the books go, others have made several excellent suggestions. Books are valuable, and it’s not that I don’t want the references, but obviously we won’t all be getting all that reading done in the next day or two.
on April 21st, 2006 at 1:11 am
It was said earlier:
“Even though their own Bible says “The wages sin pays is death”, not “death and then eternal torment for what they did”, they want more.”
This is not true. The Bible clearly teaches: “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
The Bible teaches that death is not and ending but a seperation. At our physical death we are seperated from our physical body and this world. At the second death, we are forever seperated from God and, as the Bible teaches, cast into the Lake of Fire. This is what Christians believe Christ saves us from.
on April 21st, 2006 at 1:13 am
I have an interesting (to me at least) question about death for the Christians involved here.
I’m seeing a lot of “What do you tell that parent who lost an infant”. Well, what do YOU tell them? I generally commiserate the loss. I’ve lost family members and had friends lose close family members. The only few times I’ve heard someone outright declare they hated God was when some fool of a person said “God took little so and so to be an angel in heaven with him.”
Those who have lost loved ones want sympathy. Of course I don’t say their kid had “dissolved” and “it was good while it lasted”. But I have generally found that saying things like “god needed another angel” (he has to take from us to provide for himself?) doesn’t go over well.
So, isn’t “comforting” someone with the belief that their loved one is in heaven just a different way of saying that God took them, i.e. he’s responsible, he foresaw it, etc?
on April 21st, 2006 at 1:21 am
Mueleski, that scripture you quoted was in Revelation, which starts out by saying it’s in “signs” and symbols, not literal.
Here are some more scriptures paraphrased:
Ecclesiastes 9:5–the dead are concious of nothing at all (so how are they to undergo torment and be sorry they got there in the first place?)
Psalms 146:4 His spirit goes out, he goes back to the ground, in that day his thoughts do perish (I think you’d need a mind to understand you were separated from God, no matter which numbered death it was)
Ecclesiastes 9:10 All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going. (Hmm this scripture could almost be an atheist motto, LOL. If you have no knowledge or wisdom, how can you know you’re separated from God?)
on April 21st, 2006 at 1:21 am
Hey, Cassandra, you know who’s missing in all of this? Goose Henry!
on April 21st, 2006 at 1:56 am
Contemplator,
No you are wrong again. No where does it say in Revelation that this is all sign and symbols and nothin in this book is to be taken literally. Though admittedly so, there is a lot of symbolism used in the book and is not to be taken literally.
Go up to a dead man and ask him the time–he wont respond. When Solomon wrote Ecclesiastes, he was looking at the world much like an Athiest would, and was looking at life from what could only be observed.
Psalm 146:4 would also have to be looking at this life, because once again, a man might be thinking on going to the park or building a new house, or starting that new job on Monday but death would bring those thoughts to a halt. I’m not sure about the “His spirit goes out” part. Does it mean extinguished, or out of his body?
The Bible does teach more clearly “to be absent from the body and present with the Lord” and “it is appointed on to man once to die and after that the judgment.” One of the clearer teachings on this is when Christ talks about the rich man and Lazuras where he says that the rich man died and opened up his eyes and was in hell.
on April 21st, 2006 at 2:15 am
to “Life makes alot more sense as an atheist? We die and go nowhere? Where is the purpose?”
and
“Well, if there is no God setting the agenda/or purpose, then whose purpose is legit? Who decides.”
Maybe there is no predetermined higher purpose. Maybe we are just here. Alone, but together. Maybe we are the only one’s responsible for making this life peaceful and good. Maybe we make our own purpose.
“You could argue that someone raping me or my little children has as much purpose in what he is doing than as what you or I see as our purpose. Someone might argue, right and wrong determines the purpose. But then who determines what is right and wrong?”
I think all of the above are true.
As you said -someone raping me- or my little children, as well as right and wrong all will determine our purpose.
Some of us will make bad choices, even horrible choices and live purposefully evil lives. Others will make good, noble and beautiful choices living purposefully good lives. Many others will fall inbetween these extremes.
Maybe no one person or entity decides. To me this isn’t grim. I actually have faith in humanity. I think most of us want the same things. Humanity will keep fighting and warring because that’s the purpose of some people. We can still strive to be good ourselves. We can choose who we want to be in this life. Anyway, I really feel that there is room for all of us. Whatever moves us and gives us motivation to be compassionate people is a good thing. Whether it’s God, love, nature or our children, matters not.
I wish you all peace!
on April 21st, 2006 at 8:34 am
I have a question for the Christians here:
Why should I believe in your god? There’s quite a market out there, so if I’m going to pick one, why should it be yours? Why should it be your version of yours, and not the Jewish or Muslim version?
I’m not being sarcastic, I’d like to know, why should I believe in the god of the New Testament?
on April 21st, 2006 at 9:12 am
RR,
You ask, “Why should I believe in the god of the New Testament?” Jesus claimed he was God. He also said, “I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me.” I’ve not exhausted the entire “market out there,” but from my current understanding, no other belief system makes those claims. His statements beg a challenge — either I am it, or he is not. Why should you believe in Jesus? Explore his claims. It is the most critical thing you can do with your life.
Contemplator, Lot’s of good questions. I have lots to do today, but I will get back to you. Curious are you all night owls? Or is this discussion keeping some of us up thinking?
on April 21st, 2006 at 9:22 am
Mueleski, Rev 1:1 says that it is a revelation given by an angel “presented in signs” to John.
Now, you can say I’m wrong. That’s fine. However, I’ve had several sects of Christianity interpret those scriptures to mean something other than you say. Why should I think you’re interpretation is the right one? There are many interpretations of the things in the Bible. Many of them jibe with the others. Why do *you* have the proper understanding and others don’t?
on April 21st, 2006 at 9:27 am
“Explore his claims. It is the most critical thing you can do with your life.”
Most other religions would say the same thing, though, Nancy. Why should Christianity take priority?
I don’t know if this is even a question worth asking, RR, I mean when I was a Christian, I would’ve seen Christianity as the most critical thing you could do. I simply wouldn’t have seen it another way. I’m not trying to insult Christians here, but my own personal experience would’ve told me your question was a no brainer that didn’t really require a “case” made for it. I can’t think of how to reword it, though.
Nancy, I’m a semi-night owl. :) I went to bed shortly after posting.
on April 21st, 2006 at 9:42 am
Contemplator:
It seemed like it was all atheists challenging the views of Christians here, so I thought I’d invite some Christians to challenge my non-belief :)
on April 21st, 2006 at 9:50 am
1. What is your religion?
Christian
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
25 years (with a few rocky years in there)
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
Whoa, you want me to be short:-). Okay, raised in a Christian family (never really knew a day when I started believing), went through huge periods of doubt because I was looking for the “experience”, went through the whole “is there a God thing” and came out to the conclusion that there was. And now am living a blissful, peaceful exsistance with nary a care in the world, my millions are in the bank, my kids are perfect, and I am never sick because I am one of the chosen, right? HA, HA.
4. What do you do for a living?
Wife (first vocation) and SAHM (second vocation)
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
BS in education, graduated with honors (not that that amounts to a hill of beans
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
To me the Christian world view is the only one that makes since because it is the only one that provides a basis for morality which we all have in some form or another. My ultimate authority is the Bible. It is self authenticating (has to be if it is the ultimate). So my wisdom and thought is not the authority standard (thankfully).
Last thing, I am a horrible speller so pardon all the mistakes. I try to catch them all but, alas, I am a mere mortal.
If I didn’t believe in God would I live differently?
You bet. I wouldn’t be faithful to my husband, I would have huge road rage, I would steal, I would tke revenge on those I deemed worthy of it, I wouldn’t go to church or read my Bible (what would be the point of that) I would lie. See I am a bad dude without Christ.
I’m not being sarcastic, I’d like to know, why should I believe in the god of the New Testament?
I appreciate the great atmosphere here. I want everything I say to come across with an attitude of respect and humility (we are all image bearers [God’s image] so I want to treat all with respect) but sometimes that is hard to do with this medium.
The God of the Bible (new and old testament) is the only one that fits logically. With out a law giver, where do we come up with right and wrong? If this all just happened, where did moral absolutes come from (murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, etc.) ?
I’ll stop because I am using way to much space. Nice to meet you all. And share in this discussion.
on April 21st, 2006 at 10:17 am
“To me the Christian world view is the only one that makes since because it is the only one that provides a basis for morality which we all have in some form or another. My ultimate authority is the Bible. It is self authenticating (has to be if it is the ultimate).”
For Rebecca (and other Christians who want to jump in on it): it simply isn’t true that Christianity is the only religion with a basis for morality. All religions have a basis for morality.
Also, the Bible does not prove itself authentic. There is no evidence for a world wide flood. Maybe a massive flood in the Mesopotamian region. But not worldwide. There have been no horde of Egyptian war chariots, horses, and soldiers dredged up from the “red sea”. There is no proof that a nation of several million (including women, children and animals) wandered the wilderness for 40 years after. There is no evidence the Hebrew children built the pyramids. There is no evidence the sun stood still so Joshua could get in a few more hours of good fighting.
“where did moral absolutes come from (murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, etc.) ?”
Perhaps this is too much for one post, but do you believe that if someone breaks into your house and assaults you and your children you have the right to defend yourself? What if the assaulter dies? Were you “wrong” for killing him? In New Orleans when people were stranded for food and clean water, were they wrong for taking it from the stores instead of starving to death? So are they “absolutes” or not?
on April 21st, 2006 at 10:31 am
I want to make sure I understand you correctly.
Are you are saying the Bible needs outside proof to prove that it is true?
If that is true, then there is a standard above the Bible (archiology, science, etc.). If the Bible is the ultimate standard, then it doesn’t need these things to prove that it is true.
I know you think this is naive on my part. I have been down this road in my life when I was looking for anything to prove to me that the Bible was true so I could believe it. I realized that I had to take the Bible at its word because it says it is the absolute truth. If I have to find something else to prove that the Bible is absolute truth, then it cannot stand alone as absolute authority, it must bow to whatever is proving it.
Does that come across how I want it to? Sometimes I find is so diffucult to make the words say what is in my brain.
I believe there is a difference between murder (malicious intent to take life) and defending oneself (there are passages in the OT that deal with that very issue–if someone was lying in wait to kill someone that was murder, but if you accidently killed someone or it was in self defense that was a different story–I don’t have references here and am very bad at remembering what they are “bad Christian, bad Christian”–frankly, I’m glad that my position in Christ doesn’t depend on me knowing all the OT references–whew!)
You are correct that Christianity isn’t the only religion with a basis for morality. That was one of my reasons. I’ll get back to you with the others when I have time to post more. Sorry about the unclearness of it all.
on April 21st, 2006 at 10:45 am
RR - Because He offers us relationship. He offers forgiveness for our mistakes. He doesnt just tell us to do good things he offers us power to do those things. He has the hairs on your head numbered. He knows our going out and lying down. He is madly in love with you. So in love he sent his son to die for you so that you could have a relatioship with him. The price has been paid, there is no balance sheet of your goodness and badness. I could go on for months. let me know what specific facets you are interested in.
on April 21st, 2006 at 10:55 am
“Why should I believe in your god? There’s quite a market out there, so if I’m going to pick one, why should it be yours? Why should it be your version of yours, and not the Jewish or Muslim version?”
You should explore belief in SOME God, because there’s evidence of it everywhere you look. Has anyone else noticed that atheists are a dying breed these days? I wonder why more and more people attach themselves to some form of spirituality. I don’t remember the last time I met an atheist. EVERYONE I meet (and I have these discussions a lot) says something like “Well, I don’t know about Christianity, but I know someone’s out there…” Has anyone addressed the growing consensus of scientists and collegiate intellectuals who are admitting to the necessity of intelligent design to explain the universe? I’m curious to know what atheists think of these people. Is it just bum-science, people trying to draw attention to themselves, or what?
I have noticed that this discussion has taken the form of reason vs. not unsubstantiated belief. This is foolish– reason and empiricism need not rule out faith and the supernatural. Of course the reason and rationality of atheists, science, and the intellectual world deserves a high place of credibility. In Christianity(whether it’s in evidence or not here), there is a high premium on these things. It’s just that reason and empiricism don’t take a position of FINAL importance. Sometime God will empirically evidence himself. Sometimes he will not, and demand faith.
As far as I am concerned, anything that science can prove(I mean REALLY prove, not pilt-down man garbage) is true. And it all rests in God. I love science because it glorifies God that much more that he could be so painstaking. I love reason for the same reason. Ha ha….reason, reason, reason…
on April 21st, 2006 at 11:00 am
Rebecca, not trying to be rude, but there is no such thing as self authenticating. How do we know the Bible is true, because it says so–why doesn’t this apply to any other book claiming to be inspired of a god? If the Bible is above archaeology and physics and whatever else, it should easily be proved by these “lesser” standards of proof.
I know the OT references you’re talking about. Death is death. That’s pretty absolute in itself. If you’re saying that dying by another’s hand is OK in some situations but not in others, then you are saying that killing someone is not *absolutely* necessarily wrong. Murder is when someone else kills you, plain and simple. You can read intent into it if you want, but it still means someone ended your life. Even in the Bible, it seems, there are no hard and fast absolutes.
on April 21st, 2006 at 11:13 am
In response to anon’s question about where are all the atheists, Church attendance is falling dramatically in most Western countries. It’s been documented quite well. The people you are saying “don’t know about christianity but know something’s out there” are technically labeled “agnostic”. That’s hardly a boost to religion. The most popular religion is Islam, most believers who, by the way, are not in the Middle East or of Arabic ethnicity.
I haven’t heard any scientists claiming that Intelligent Design is necessary. If you’re referring to scientists who have faith, you’ll notice they don’t use science to prove their faith because it can’t be done. If you’re talking about scientists from a place like Answers in Genesis, I suppose that’s something different entirely, as many of their so called intellectuals do not have education in the fields they claim to.
I guess it boils down to whether or not people will genuinely look at evidence and use rationality, reason and everything else in their brains to analyze human philosophy, archaeological evidence, and so on. If you aren’t willing to be curious and examine, I guess you see whatever suits your worldview.
on April 21st, 2006 at 11:14 am
There are a few comments that I wanted to respond to.
Jessica Davis said:
If ya have a bad daddy it’s real hard to believe in God
I find this comment sad because I have an excellent father. He’s also a devout Christian. He was an excellent father because he managed to help my mother raise a woman to think for herself. To question everything, and to stand up for what she believes in. He’s very proud of me despite the fact that I’m an atheist.
But I see that you love your father and he seems like a great guy. :-)
Contemplator said:
Hey, Cassandra, you know who’s missing in all of this? Goose Henry!
Oh yeah! Where the hell is he?!
Rebecca said:
You bet. I wouldn’t be faithful to my husband, I would have huge road rage, I would steal, I would tke revenge on those I deemed worthy of it, I wouldn’t go to church or read my Bible (what would be the point of that) I would lie. See I am a bad dude without Christ.
Interesting. I don’t steal, cheat on my husband, or have huge road rage. What does this say? If you need Christ in your life to avoid doing the above things, that doesn’t say a whole lot about you as a person… No offense meant. I’m sure you can understand what I’m saying.
Rebecca said:
Wife (first vocation) and SAHM (second vocation)
Interesting. You even made a point of pointing out the order of your priorities. Why do you feel that being a wife comes before being a mother? This just floors me, as a mother. My kids come first before everything and anything. Even my husband. I would hope that he feels the same way. I know that a lot of Christian women feel that their husbands are the “head of the house” and are ultimately in charge. Why is this?? Because of what it says in the Bible?
Here’s my question about Jesus. Who’s to say that he wasn’t just schizophrenic? He could have just been some crazy guy making all sorts of claims. We have tons of them today. Lots of people think that they are God. What makes Jesus any different? Who’s to say that some of the people that most of us consider crackpots aren’t really sent from God?
on April 21st, 2006 at 11:17 am
Sorry, the above comment was me. :-)
on April 21st, 2006 at 11:23 am
Rebecca -
“The God of the Bible (new and old testament) is the only one that fits logically. With out a law giver, where do we come up with right and wrong? If this all just happened, where did moral absolutes come from (murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, etc.)”
Is it not possible that morality comes from ourselves? We know what we don’t like. We know what causes pain. We are empathic. This motivates most of us to follow the golden rule all by itself. I do not believe in God. I treat my fellow human beings well because it feels right to me to be the way to them that I want them to be to me. When you say-
“If I didn’t believe in God would I live differently?
You bet. I wouldn’t be faithful to my husband, I would have huge road rage, I would steal, I would tke revenge on those I deemed worthy of it, I wouldn’t go to church or read my Bible (what would be the point of that) I would lie. See I am a bad dude without Christ.”
I guess I think, well, it’s a good thing you’ve got God to stop you from doing all those things. Whatever it takes. It isn’t the only way though. There are millions upon millions of peaceful, moral people in the world who do not believe in God.
on April 21st, 2006 at 11:27 am
“Whether one believes in a religion or not,and whether one believes in rebirth or not,there isn’t anyone who doesn’t appreciate kindness and compassion.”
-Dalai Lama
on April 21st, 2006 at 11:46 am
Kerry:
More specifically, what I’m saying is that most of the claims of Christianity I’m seeing here are either (a) false or (b) also claimable for one or more other religions.
I’ll tell you right off that accepting something as true simply because it says, “I am true, do not try to prove me wrong” is not going to fly with me. Even if it did, as others have mentioned, why should I choose your favorite book that says so, when there are others that say the same thing?
Rebecca:
As someone else alluded to: you would cheat on your husband if you weren’t afraid of hellfire? Do you love your husband? Don’t you think it would hurt him if you cheated on him? Do you need any more reason not to? I mean, sure we all make mistakes, but as far as a reason not to do it, is that insufficient?
Sandra: Thanks for that quote. Literal reincarnation aside, this is a large part of why I embrace Buddhism in general, and Zen in particular.
Here, if we’re going to call Zen Buddhism a religion (as it is often thought to be) and I claim it as mine, let’s compare what you’d have to overcome to convince me to switch (back) to Christianity.
Buddhism says: Quiet your mind. Observe your thoughts. Are they hurtful? Loving? Observe your every action. Does it cause others pain? Does it cause others joy or at least allow them to live in peace?
Observe the things that upset you? Why are you upset? Are you attached to some thought, that if you let it go would give you peace?
It doesn’t ask me to believe something because it says it should be believed. I tried really hard when I was younger to really truly believe in god. I really wanted to. Some people view this as something they have to overcome, to work toward faith. I thought so too. Slowly, but surely, I came to realize that it was so hard to believe because it was a bunch of fabrications with nothing but themselves to stand on.
Essentially, for my own well-being and for the well-being of those around me, I view taking on Christianity as my religion once more as harmful and immoral, and it would take profound, verifiable truth to convince me that another religion is the right one.
Zen Buddhism has led me to better understand my thoughts and actions, and has produced greater happiness and peace of mind in my life, in a directly observable way.
Many people pitch similar results of Christianity, but the fact is that an unsubstantiated belief (i.e. faith) and all of the horrible trappings of the ancient medieval texts on such a belief is based are entirely unnecessary to reap those benefits in my view.
Now, in that light, why should I be Christian?
on April 21st, 2006 at 11:56 am
okay, i’ll play although it’s a little late in the game. but first i just have to tell cassandra that i love this blog. you write with genuine transparancy and i really appreciate that. plus, i thought your “war on easter” post was funny as hell.
1. What is your religion?
christian
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
27 years
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
i professed belief at the age of 8 in what can only be described as a sort of pascal’s wager. it was sincere, but obviously shallow.
i pretty much sailed my “ticket to heaven” concept of christianity through adolescence until i wrecked on the shores of a failing marriage in my early 20’s. in desperation i half-heartedly cried out to a god that i was mostly convinced didn’t exist.
to my utter surprise an unseen personality responded in dramatic fashion, arresting my thoughts and emotions in a number of different ways; intellectual, emotional, and sometimes even physical. i believe this was God, however, instead of fixing my life He ruined it. i just wanted my marriage to be peaceful and my job to be profitable. instead, God began a systematic campaign of completely overturning each of my concepts of life in ways that were often initially offensive, but always eventually liberating. 13 years later that process continues.
4. What do you do for a living?
i’m a pastor.
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
bible college/ministry school
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
two things: first, it became impossible for me to disbelieve when i encountered Christ in an invisible yet tangible way. furthermore it become impossible to ever relinquish my belief when i realized, after much study, that thousands of witnesses, over 5000 years of judeo-christian history, across incredibly diverse cultures and circumstances had all sung the same tune i was now singing; they had encountered the very same person. there is no science to prove or disprove historical witness.
second, for those who have placed their faith in Christ, heaven is not something we wait for after death. i, and countless other christians, attest that what paul said is true - God has placed his Spirit in our hearts as a down-payment guaranteeing the promise of the future peaceful rulership of God. we enjoy heaven even now - and seek to share it - in the midst of what sometimes can seem like a world that more closely resembles hell.
on April 21st, 2006 at 12:07 pm
“I would have huge road rage”
I think I’ve hinted at this before, but I have huge road rage. But then I had that before I became an atheist. I don’t feel any more or less compelled to scream obscenties at the guy in front of me driving 10K under the speed limit in the passing lane because he’s deeply engrossed in the conversation he’s having on his cell phone now than before. Methinks I show my cards too soon.
“My kids come first before everything and anything. Even my husband. I would hope that he feels the same way.”
My wife and I have discussed this during pregnancy. The sprog comes first in everything. We will always be second to each other. It’s the only way we would have it.
on April 21st, 2006 at 12:13 pm
Jason, thanks for playing! And thank you for the compliment. I’m glad you appreciate my writing. I checked out your blog and see your links to Vineyard. Are you a member of the church I payed a visit to?
on April 21st, 2006 at 12:14 pm
Sprog? :) BTW I admire this approach, I hope when it comes time for me and mine to procreate that we can agree on something similar.
on April 21st, 2006 at 12:15 pm
The Bible needs authentication, but not from anything in this world. It receives its authentication from God who wrote it and He needs none. God needs no one to call Him God to know He is God. This discussion is much too man-centered. You are all wondering about your purposes and what not. What about God’s purpose? HE is to receive all glory. He glorifies and enjoys Himself forever. Somehow, I bet that’s what our purpose should look like also. We should glorify Him simply because He is God. However, we have an even greater reason which the angels do not have. God sent His Son Jesus to die for our transgression. None of us are good, so quit comparing your weak lives. I am not good and would never claim to be. I am a depraved man, but Christ has credited me with His righteousness which is amazing since I don’t deserve it. I deserve the second death just like everyone here. You all want evidence. God gave evidence in Jesus Christ who validated Himself through His resurrection. Yet, you call His existence myth and His resurrection bogus. If this is your starting point, then your conclusion is already made. Open your minds to God. When Solomon did, he called this world and its purposes vain and worthless. He only found meaning in God’s redemptive plan which is still unfolding. If it was fully complete, we wouldn’t even need faith because God would be physically looking us in the eyes. That’s what the entire book of Ecclesiastes is about. Do not take Scripture out of context and expect to make a solid point against God who wrote the Book. Concerning Heaven, heaven is not the end. Read the last two chapters of Revelation (which is not symbolic, God was revealing the future in language we can understand) and you will see that there will be a New Earth. God will dwell there with His people forever and we will worship and give glory to Him with our own physical bodies. That’s the power of resurrection. God’s plan is good. Why should it be replaced? Who thinks they are over Him to tell Him it won’t work? Hopefully, not you. Cry out to Him that He will help your unbelief.
on April 21st, 2006 at 12:33 pm
“None of us are good, so quit comparing your weak lives.”
Well, actually, I am good. Not perfect, but I think I’m a good person.
“This discussion is much too man-centered.”
Well, we’re talking about people and what they believe, so this is necessary.
“You are all wondering about your purposes and what not.”
Actually, no.
“What about God’s purpose? HE is to receive all glory. He glorifies and enjoys Himself forever. Somehow, I bet that’s what our purpose should look like also.”
Yes, we should love and believe in ourselves and glorify in the fact that we are alive and in the good things we do for ourselves and others.
“God gave evidence in Jesus Christ who validated Himself through His resurrection. Yet, you call His existence myth and His resurrection bogus.”
You’re basing this on 2000+ year-old hearsay written by men. Even the bible says it was written by men, though many of them claim to have been inspired.
My mind has been open to god. It was before, as wide open as it could be, and yet where was god? Nowhere. It is still open, and if god makes him/her/itself evident to me (and others, because I could be crazy… think about that…) then I will not hesitate to believe.
In my 23 years, though, I’ve looked and looked and found nothing.
I’m asking you to convince me to pick your pack of claims over someone else’s and so far you’re doing an awful job.
on April 21st, 2006 at 12:38 pm
Me without God.
Unfaithful to my husband. Someone said what about love, don’t you love him.
Yes, I do, but love is impossible with out God. He is love. Love is defined by God and what He does. (Already, I can hear the keys tapping:-).
So, if the was no God there is no way I could love my husband.
I am not saying that I am wanting to go out and do those things right now but I am scared of hell fire. No, I am saying that I have a moral standard, as do y’all, that make me say “those things are wrong, I can’t do that”.
I realize the way it came across the wrong way.
Hubby and I have a very good relationship. He is number one to me. Because he is, I try to be the best mom for my children that I can be. To me the two are not mutually exclusive.
I will respond more when I have time later.
on April 21st, 2006 at 12:52 pm
“Yes, I do, but love is impossible with out God. He is love. Love is defined by God and what He does.”
As you said, keys tapping.
Given the loving god of which you speak, then I think it might be appropriate to switch some words around:
“God is impossible without love. God is defined by love and what we do because of it.”
Unfortunately, most people’s gods are a little less loving than that and a little more spiteful.
Jason:
Kudos, by the way, on your blog. If only more Christians thought like you I’d have a lot better things to say about them in general.
on April 21st, 2006 at 12:54 pm
“I guess I think, well, it’s a good thing you’ve got God to stop you from doing all those things. Whatever it takes. It isn’t the only way though. There are millions upon millions of peaceful, moral people in the world who do not believe in God.”
Just real quick.
Believing in God does not make one moral. We are moral because there is a God. That is why there are millions upon millions of peaceful moral people in the world who do not believe in God.
Their belief or disbelief does not make one whit of difference.
If I were not a Christian I would be a peaceful, moral person. (Okay, I might still have the road rage;-).) But if there were no God there could not be any peaceful, moral people.
on April 21st, 2006 at 1:12 pm
RR,
Have you ever hated someone? Jesus defines this as murder. Have you ever had lust on your mind? This is adultery. Have you ever wanted something that wasn’t yours? You are a thief. Do you feel good now? Your issue is not with me and my “awful job” arguments. God says you are not good. “There is none righteous, no not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” If you are glorying in the “good things” you do, then you will not glory long. True, it is good to be alive, but you are not. “Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” While you remain unbelieving, you stand condemned and the smell of death is on you. You call this the words of hearsay. Amazingly, each of those men believed it to their deaths at the hands of pagans. They were in a position to know if it was made up lies and they gave up their lives. No one dies for a lie.
God has made Himself evident to you. Read Romans 1:16-2:5.
When it comes to my inadequacies, I readily admit I am not the greatest logician. However, I am not amused when evidence that God made readily available is ignored. Remember, your game is not with me. Ultimately, it is with God. He will defend Himself when the time comes.
on April 21st, 2006 at 1:21 pm
I appreciate your kinds words about my blog. I have posted about this game there because I want the word to get out to some of my fellow seminarians. We are uncomfortable listening to atheistic footsteps marching unknowingly into eternal condemnation. If I did not love you, then I would keep silent and pretend like there is nothing wrong. I might even praise you for the good you attempt to do. However, because I do love you, I am not content to hear you speak blasphemies that will lead to your eternal torment. I love you and that is why the word of truth must be graciously given regardless of its acceptance.
on April 21st, 2006 at 1:22 pm
Jason Doty:
This is exactly what I meant when I said that talking about this with certain people was folly.
I’m going to try to take my own advice and not continue to discuss this with you.
on April 21st, 2006 at 1:24 pm
Jason Doty:
Actually, I meant the other Jason, who just goes by Jason here. He seems to be tolerant, caring, and not judgemental. In my mind he’s doing a great job following in the footsteps of the Jesus presented in the bible.
on April 21st, 2006 at 1:24 pm
I realize you were probably referring to the other Jason’s blog. Sorry about that. This does not change anything that I said.
on April 21st, 2006 at 1:27 pm
“Given the loving god of which you speak, then I think it might be appropriate to switch some words around”
I ask this in all seriousness, what do you think the loving god of which I speak looks (not physically) like? I want to make sure that we are on the same page. Somehow I get the feeling that we are not in this regard.
Looking forward to your response.
Thank you.
on April 21st, 2006 at 1:31 pm
In a roundabout way, you are calling me intolerant, uncaring, and judgmental. Why?
on April 21st, 2006 at 1:52 pm
cassandra: no, i’m a pastor on staff with another vineyard church down in grove city. we were planted by “the mothership” up there in westerville about 13 years ago.
rr: wow, that’s quite a compliment…thanks. though i certainly don’t live up to your assessment most days.
on April 21st, 2006 at 1:57 pm
rr: I looked at your blog to see the kind of stuff you wrote about and I have no idea what you are talking about:-). I’m glad there are all different types because someone has to make heads or tails out of that stuff.
on April 21st, 2006 at 2:14 pm
Jason Doty:
I’ll let you answer your own question (and yes, I’m only taking excerpts, but I think they’re illustrative).
“At His Name every knee will bow and every tongue will confess (this includes you even if you think you are an atheist) that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”
“None of us are good, so quit comparing your weak lives.”
“I deserve the second death just like everyone here.”
“When Solomon did, he called this world and its purposes vain and worthless.”
‘Have you ever hated someone? Jesus defines this as murder. Have you ever had lust on your mind? This is adultery. Have you ever wanted something that wasn’t yours? You are a thief. Do you feel good now? Your issue is not with me and my “awful job” arguments. God says you are not good. “There is none righteous, no not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.’
‘it is good to be alive, but you are not. “Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” While you remain unbelieving, you stand condemned and the smell of death is on you.’
“However, I am not amused when evidence that God made readily available is ignored. Remember, your game is not with me. Ultimately, it is with God. He will defend Himself when the time comes.”
These are insults, judgements, and threats, and whether they come from you or the book you quote, they are still intolerant, cruel, and judgemental.
on April 21st, 2006 at 2:19 pm
rebecca: I’m not sure what you mean about what God looks like, though I appreciate your candor.
A little more about where I’m coming from with the original comment, though.
I get two broad impressions from Christians. One is of people attempting to follow the example of Jesus, who love their neighbors and let god do the judging, who turn the other cheek, and who spread the good news by their actions. The other is of people who need their religion to make themselves feel better, who use it to judge those around them and deem them more sinful and inferior, who see fit to hate certain groups of people because of the way they act or think. Pat Robertson comes to mind as a particularly apt example.
Obviously this is not all-encompassing, but like I said, those are the two general impressions I get from various kinds of Christians.
My comment was actually a bit tongue-in-cheek, just a little play on words, because of what I remember hearing in church about a god who loves us and forgives our sins, who sent his only son to die a miserable death in order to redeem us.
on April 21st, 2006 at 2:24 pm
Jason said,
“wow, that’s quite a compliment…thanks. though i certainly don’t live up to your assessment most days.”
Two of your recent posts, one about buzz marketing and the other about Fred Phelps, led to this assessment.
on April 21st, 2006 at 2:31 pm
One of those quotes sticks out. “I deserve the second death…” The Bible and its judgments are upon me also. Like I said your game is not with me. I am in your shoes if Jesus did not save me. The Word of God is exclusive. If my quoting it makes me all those things, then I am guilty as charged. I will continue to love you and pray for you because I will not accept that this is the end of your discussion with God. I will pray because God is the God who saves. He will be glorified and I hope part of this glory is seen through Him changing the hearts of people worldwide. If I am a stumbling block to that, then I will not participate in the game any longer.
on April 21st, 2006 at 2:43 pm
Jason Doty:
Just to sort of wrap things up, since I think we’ve both decided to stop discussing this, you seem to be a pleasant and well-intentioned person, and my problem lies not with you, but with your god. Likewise you seem to say that you do not have a problem with me, but that your god has a problem with my attitudes on this subject, so I think it’s safe to say that between you and me things are okay :). I apologize if you feel that any of those adjectives were directed at you and not the words you quoted or paraphrased.
on April 21st, 2006 at 3:02 pm
Rebecca, you said: “Believing in God does not make one moral. We are moral because there is a God. That is why there are millions upon millions of peaceful moral people in the world who do not believe in God.
Their belief or disbelief does not make one whit of difference.”
May I ask why there are “immoral” people then? And why they are among both believers and non-believers?
on April 21st, 2006 at 3:37 pm
I’ve been reading this thread with excitement, and finally have a question that I think is relevant.
I’m an atheist, and have been for a few years.
My question is for the theists:
Is it possible for me to do good without doing so in the name of your god?
If not, wouldn’t my good deeds be glorifying your god?
If so, wouldn’t I go to heaven?
If not, why?
on April 21st, 2006 at 4:12 pm
Contemplator,
You had a lot of good questions last night. Glad to hear your getting sleep.
I asked you to consider reading three books and giving me a list of your recommendations. Anyone else reading this, I ask this of you also.
Again, being a novice blogger, it seems like a waste of a lot of our valuable time if we don’t educate ourselves to the others playing field.
You said we don’t have time to read them in 1 or 2 days. I didn’t know there was a time limit on this thing. A smart guy like you could easily read them in 1 to 2 months. Our conversation between time would be a lot less, but it would be a lot more educated on both our ends. The books I listed answer many of your questions. And I would love to understand the evidence for yours — from your sources, not someone elses suggestions so we’re talking the same statements, etc.
I’m willing to play for 1-2 years, if we all get educated to each others position. Otherwise, I’m afraid this will eat up a lot of valuable time — yours and mine. I must say, this has been wonderful for me. My faith challenges me to love God with all my heart soul and mind. Thanks for helping me love him with my mind!
Contemplator, you wanted clarification on what I meant by “not this.” I was referring to when you ignored me personally by addressing Cassandra and then commenting on my statements as “most people” and the nebulous “they.”
To the Christians entering the discussion. Good to hear from you too.
on April 21st, 2006 at 4:19 pm
Contemplator,
I didn’t know you had a blog when I used the imprecise term “screwed” someone you love. Glad you had some fun with it. I know you know I meant “hurt.” Also, on my description of heaven, I agreed on the posting with you that the Bible is not explicit and that my thoughts were based on logical deduction from what we do know from the Bible’s description.
Also, what is your blog address, I would like to check it out.
on April 21st, 2006 at 4:29 pm
Nancy Davis:
Certainly it will take a while if we’re all going to read up on this stuff. I’ll look into acquiring your suggestions (hopefully from the library). Here are mine:
* Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid - Douglas Hofstadter
* A New Kind of Science (available free online!) After about the first third it repeats itself so you can stop if you want :) - Stephen Wolfram
* The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
* The Miracle of Mindfulness - Thich Nhat Hanh
Only one of those could really be said to be anti-religion, because Dawkins has a bit of an anti-religious bent. The others explain various scientific and psychological things.
The first two books were sufficient to convince me that our minds can exist without a soul, based only on the complex biology of our brains, and the second and third books combined were sufficient to convince me that from simple rules, complex organisms can evolve and thrive.
The last is part of my basis for morality and ethical behavior absent rules from a god.
on April 21st, 2006 at 4:31 pm
Idea: Perhaps we should set up some kind of discussion forum for this? I have a pretty good hosted server I could set up phpBB on or something.
Your thoughts on that?
on April 21st, 2006 at 4:39 pm
Hey RR, that would be just fine with me! It is tough to read in this format. I have even played around with the page to get it in a wider column but it just wasn’t working (although, I didn’t try all that hard).
Michelle and ACW, great questions!!
Also, something that has been kicked around many times before - what about all of the tribes out in the middle of no where in Africa? Some of them haven’t heard about this Jesus guy and his father. What exactly does it mean for them?
If I’m correct, the Jehovah Witnesses believe that paradise can’t come until they have given everyone the opportunity to join them or reject them. That’s why they are all so busy knocking on doors. But what about the thousands of babys born everyday? How will they “hear the word?” Know what I mean??
on April 21st, 2006 at 4:48 pm
I like The Selfish Gene as well, although, I have to say I never really thought about an “atheist” book list. I’ve read a lot of philosophy and works by scientists and history. Sorry about not having a compact list to present, but I never read one book that “turned” me into an atheist or convinced me instantly. It was a rational decision I made after years of reading and thinking. It’s just a label, really. Stardust1954 had listed two books up in the comments, one by Carl Sagen that I hear many people like. Come to think about it, I don’t think I’ve ever really checked out any books on atheism. I’ve been largely influenced by science, history, and philosophy. And I still like reading those things.
“I know you know I meant “hurt.” Actually, I didn’t. You followed it by words about love, and some people take screw to mean sex. I wouldn’t have asked if I didn’t want to know.
As far as time limits go, no of course there isn’t a specific ending point to the debate, especially since it’s probably never going to be resolved. And yes, a smart “gal” :) like me could read them in 2-3 months. I’m not saying I won’t, but 2-3 months probably won’t cut it for me. I help run a non profit, and I have graduate work to do among several other time consuming things. Discussing, though, I can do anytime, briefly.
Also, realisitically, you don’t expect people to keep posting here for months, do you? We’re already over 140 comments, and it’s getting difficult to wade through. It’s a great starting place, though.
on April 21st, 2006 at 4:51 pm
I’ll third a vote for a forum. This would be a good thing. And would help the Davis’s and I continue this for the next two years, LOL.
on April 21st, 2006 at 6:25 pm
Thanks for the book lists. Contemplator, I’ll start with RR’s suggestions. My suggestions you should be able to get at the library, but I’ll buy if you want. Keep me posted about the development of a forum. You may not hear from me for a bit — I’ll be reading!
on April 21st, 2006 at 6:29 pm
Contemplator, what’s your blog address?
on April 21st, 2006 at 6:44 pm
Nancy, if you click on Contemplator’s name, it’ll take you to the blog.
:-)
on April 21st, 2006 at 7:05 pm
Rebecca – “We are moral because there is a God. That is why there are millions upon millions of peaceful moral people in the world who do not believe in God.â€� “But if there were no God there could not be any peaceful, moral people.â€�
That is what you believe. It is not a fact that we know of.
As Michelle said, “Why are there “immoralâ€� people then? And why are they among the believers and non-believers?â€�
Jason Doty – “They were in a position to know if it was made up lies and they gave up their lives. No one dies for a lie.â€�
People die for lies all the time. They die for lies they believe not to be lies. Even people in a position to know if it was made up lies, frequently believe lies. People often have all the facts before them on a big round plate, and they still believe lies. I won’t bring politics in again though.
RR – “Idea: Perhaps we should set up some kind of discussion forum for this? I have a pretty good hosted server I could set up phpBB on or something.â€�
Great Idea! I am loving this and would like to follow and participate more, but I feel that poor Cassandra must be having a hard time managing her inbox by now. As much fun as it is.
on April 21st, 2006 at 8:47 pm
anonymouscoworker - great question. sorry i didn’t answer sooner but i didn’t have time until now.
you need to know that there are a remarkably broad range of answers to your specific hypothetical situation that are all considered well within the fold of orthodox chrsitianity. i’ll get into that later, but suffice it to say that it would be inappropriate and arrogant for me to speak dogmatically for one christian answer to this question. but, i think there are some basic principles that Christianity teaches.
first, scripture teaches that nobody is truly good apart from God. while people are clearly able to do good things, no person is genuinely, wholly good because all are born apart from God and continue life perpetuating some degree of evil. that is the condition of our world.
second, jesus’ message was not about going to heaven after you die. rather he speaks continuously of the “kingdom of God,” a present reality that began with his ministry and continues through time and beyond into eternity.
third, according to scripture, entering God’s kingdom cannot come through good deeds, even if they’re done in the name of Christ. why? because our “goodness” is never sufficient to exist in the presence of one who is truly and wholly good. despite our best efforts to do good, evil is right there with us. we can never escape it or dispense with it. it blocks our entrance into God’s presence.
fourth, because of this problem, God created a doorway into his kingdom that all are invited to enter. that doorway is through the gracious provision of Christ (the only righteous human) who entered before us. by placing our faith in him we enter after him into the kingdom through his merits.
the christian shorthand for this is “repentance.”
you obviously can’t/won’t live in the kingdom if 1) you don’t believe God exists in the first place or 2) you think you’re just fine without Him, or 3) you wouldn’t want to live under God’s kingship even if He did exist.
the debate i referred to earlier agrees with these principles but further asks the question, “can a person who never knows of Christ still excercise saving faith?” this person would essentially be exercising a “good-faith” reliance on providence, which some say qualifies as saving faith. this would provides the opportunity of salvation for all those people across the centuries who have never heard of Jesus Christ.
even if this is true, it should be noted that repentance is still required. even these people must 1) believe in an ultimate supreme God, 2) beleive they’re NOT just fine without him, and 3) want to live under his good ruler-ship.
perhaps you could apply these principles to your question.
on April 21st, 2006 at 10:42 pm
I’ll try setting up the forum tomorrow then.
on April 21st, 2006 at 11:48 pm
Hi:) I probably won’t be responding much, just because well I don’t have a lot of time, but I do like to read it:)
About that dad comment, sorry for the stereotype… it’s a statistics thing, but definitely was not necessary.
hope everyone has an amazing weekend.
oh and contemplator, i enjoy reading your comments you seem to be real smart:)… one problem though, i was a pastors kid for 8 years… and I haven’t gotten myself into any trouble, by the grace of God, and i really don’t plan on it. so i wouldn’t say all pastors kids are the worst. many people use that as a stereotype as well. and it can be quite offensive.
But, have a good weekend. And im real excited about just what God’s doin’
on April 22nd, 2006 at 12:58 am
Jessica, did I say that all pastors kids are the worst? I don’t think I said that here, maybe on a different site/post? Boy, my empirical evidence sure told me otherwise, but I fully understand it’s a stereotype you shouldn’t go by. :) I’d be interested to know what statistics you’d be referring to with the dad thing.
I’m glad everyone thinks I’m so smart. Nice bit of validation to carry me into my weekend.
on April 22nd, 2006 at 10:42 am
1. What is your religion?
None
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
From my earliest recollection
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
Never thought otherwise
4. What do you do for a living?
Research
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
Tertiary
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
The only religions that warrant respect are Buddhism and those of certain indigenous peoples of the world.
“Now, my suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose” J.B.S. Haldane
on April 22nd, 2006 at 11:17 am
Hi again contemplator… well, the part about pastors kids being the worst kids was on your blog. I’m ok with the sterotype…. because by the Power of God, i won’t follow under that one. In some sense the stereotype is somewhat fair… but it is one a lot of people make, without really getting to know the behind the scenes of the kid.
“The dad thing” was a point that a professor wrote in his “truth journal: The Psycology of Atheism” by professor Paul C. Vitz. It’s pretty interesting.
The point he makes: often because people look to God as Father, many who have negative relationship with their father’s are more prone to running from God… the Father. But in your case that wouldn’t be true:). You can read that journal thing online.
on April 22nd, 2006 at 11:25 am
Jessica–you should’ve SEEN the preacher’s kids I grew up with, LOL. I have a feeling that it may be the particular brand of Christianity that has more to do with it, though.
Did this professor actually give any real data, or was he just estimating that having a negative relationship does this damage? Because if Christians make up about 80-85 % of the population, and one in three kids (some estimate higher) can expect to be physically or sexually abused during their childhood, you could also make a mangled argument that Christianity is more prone to abuse. Which of course, wouldn’t be true, as religion usually has nothing to do with it. But on the surface, you could say so. Is this an online account/diary or an actual “journal” as in peer reviewed? Sorry, I’m in the university, and journal means little bound up published essays :)to me. (And I can hear the elite ivory tower thing coming a mile away :) ).
I thought one of your family had already been to my blog. That’s why I was a bit thrown when Nancy asked about it. My stat tracker says you’ve already been.
on April 22nd, 2006 at 11:59 am
Alright folks, the forum is up, here:
http://brocktice.com/game/
Please be kind, I’ve never run a bulletin board. Suggestions are welcome.
on April 22nd, 2006 at 12:39 pm
Jason Doty: “No one dies for a lie.”
So, then are you saying that the suicide bombers are right? I would have thought you wouldn’t agree with them, since you’re Christian and they’re Muslim. Last I heard, the 40 virgins for a martyr idea was strictly muslim! By your logic, I guess those 40 virgins must be waiting for them in heaven, since they’re dying for them. Just because something dies for something, I don’t know that you can assert it’s the truth.
on April 22nd, 2006 at 12:50 pm
“Church attendance is falling dramatically… The people you are saying “don’t know about christianity but know something’s out there” are technically labeled “agnostic”. That’s hardly a boost to religion.
Church attendance has nothing to do with it. Nor does Christianity, nor which faith is growing the fastest. My point was that many studious intellectuals have observed that “atheism is dead.” It was all the rage about a hundred years ago, but the late 20th/early 21st century is characterized by either agnosticism, or reclamation of ancient tribal worship/spirituality, pantheism, belief in a Creator, etc. And this is among city-dwelling, computer literate, educated people.
All this says to me is that, at least in a “collective consciousness” of Western progress, all of modern science, medicine, technology, observation techniques, study, and intellectualism is not really in favor of atheism anymore. Certainly not Christianity either, but some sort of intelligent design. I’m simply curious about what anyone thinks about this resurgence, with the corresponding wealth of scientific knowledge we have at our disposal. Are we just going to write these college professors and researchers off?
“If you’re referring to scientists who have faith, you’ll notice they don’t use science to prove their faith because it can’t be done.”
No scientist worth his salt would try to prove what s/he takes on faith. But they can empirically justify a refusal to discard the possibility of a creative source.
on April 22nd, 2006 at 1:02 pm
Ok, I know I’m late in the game but RR told me about these comments and now I want to play.
1. What is your religion?
A Bright/Zen Buddhist
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
I stopped being Christian ~12 years ago, it took me 6 years after that to arrive at Buddhism.
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
As a teenager I decided to begin reading the Bible because I felt that if I was going to call myself Christian I ought to actually be Christian instead of calling myself Christian as a default (as most people I knew did). As I examined the Bible I just found that it did not ring true to me. It didn’t make any sense to believe it! I couldn’t buy the argument that just because it said that it was god’s word and the truth that it necessarily was. After all, couldn’t anyone write a book and say the same thing? I’d be naive if I believed for that reason alone. Yet, no other compelling reason was there. In the end most people who have tried to convert me back use the argument that the Bible is truth because it says so.
I found Buddhism because of my interest in meditation via the transcendentalists. As I examined my own mind I discovered a lot about myself and the nature of how I perceive the world. From there I explored more into Zen and its tips for delving into your mind. I agree with RR that it’s a philosophy and not a religion (although some sects of buddhism do practice as a religion it’s not inherent to buddhism itself). I, as a Bright, reject the idea of reincarnation unless interpreted as “matter is neither created nor destroyed,” in which case, sure, everything is reincarnated as something else. Will I be reborn? No. Will I push up daisies? You bet.
4. What do you do for a living?
Student
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
Bachelor’s degree in Communication, I’m currently in medical school (half done!) and also working on a Master’s degree in Public Health.
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
I’m interested in the discussion going on about morality without god. How curious that most of the Christians I’ve known and also many on here think they’d be awful people without god, when those of us who don’t believe in god seem to do just fine! I won’t say I’m perfect or that I always do the right thing, but I don’t need a belief in god to know what the right thing is. I don’t murder, cheat, steal, etc because someone tells me it’s bad or I am afraid to be punished (jail or hell) but because of the impact it has on others. In short, I’m a humanist. While I don’t think everyone on earth is moral, I don’t think that god is necessary for morality, nor do I think believe in god makes you moral. Hitler self-identified as a Christian. You can argue that he wasn’t a good christian, and that’s fair but you then also have to acknowledge that morality is a *choice* that people make that is independent of their religious beliefs.
on April 22nd, 2006 at 1:04 pm
Nate: People have become disillusioned with the promises of science, atheism, and rational thought. Of course, the promises usually came from people who weren’t actually qualified to predict the future.
The problem is, those things never could address people’s emotional needs, and some people just dropped their entire emotional support structure. When they filled the void with vice and bad choices, the conclusion was that leaving religion was wrong, and so we’ve seen a swing back toward a religious society.
In my opinion, this is a turn from folly back into the original folly. The path out is to address the emotional needs of people in a non-religious way, but not to ignore them entirely. The church was waiting with open arms, it was familiar, and so people have gone back to it. However, it will only cause the same problems it has before, and we’ll be back in this position once more after a few decades. Hopefully next time we as a society will be ready to embrace this turn when it occurs in an emotionally-sensitive yet secular way.
See also: post-modernism
on April 22nd, 2006 at 1:28 pm
1. What is your religion?
I don’t have any. There’s a whole set of fantastic beliefs I don’t hold – superstitions, fantasies, religions, etc. – and they all seem profoundly equivalent on the axis of Wishful Thinking. I joke about being an “antitheist,” which means “Not only do I not believe in gods, but I don’t think you should either.” In the complete absence of any evidence, and in the presence of a ubiquitous tangle of ooooWEEeeeoooo silliness and con-manitry, I’m convinced that there are no such things as gods, ghosts, psychics, flying saucers, elves, bigfoots, weeping statues of Mary, or the airheaded “energy” that seems to be involved in every field of wishful new-agey nonsense.
The real world is the real world. If you refuse to listen, to watch, to think, and to study, you cheat yourself out of the possibility of learning what’s really there. If you chorus hopeful silliness at it (every religion and superstition ever invented), chanting and praying and tent-revivaling, you drown out the quiet, subtle stuff that’s really there. And you learn little or nothing new.
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
When I was a kid, I was an inveterate journal-er. Somewhere around the age of 13, I wrote “I don’t believe in God” in my journal and my stepfather found and read it. Oooh. Literally years of nastiness followed. So anyway, I STARTED to become an atheist somewhere about that time. But even as early as, oh, six or so, there were things about religion that didn’t make sense.
It took me until I was about 30 to really get the last shreds of religion out of my head, though – to get to the point where I was no longer occasionally thinking things like “What if I’m wrong and He really IS watching me?”
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
I call it The Ten Thousand Clues. The meme is fairly new, but the way it worked out in my head is old. I know there is no Spiderman, not anywhere, not ever, NOT because I’ve searched every corner of the entire Universe, but because every bit of evidence related to Spiderman – The Ten Thousand Clues – points to a totally fabricated origin: the comic books, the actors who played him talking about their roles, the fact that the guy who created him is still alive and talks about how he came up with him, the basic silliness of the backstory (bitten by a radioactive spider??), the merchandising, and on and on.
Every adult in the West has used The Ten Thousand Clues, without knowing it, to satisfy him- or herself that there is no Santa Claus. Clues include the actions of parents, the movies, the store Santas, the various diverse guys walking around on the streets dressed as Santa, the fact that everything that flies EXCEPT Santa’s reindeer does so by some understandable or visible mechanism, the impossible physics of delivering toys to billions of households in one night, even the simple question most of us started with “But mom, how can Santa come down the chimbley if we don’t HAVE a chimbley?”
We get to the comfortable point where we KNOW that not only is there no such thing as Santa, but that there simply can’t be. The Ten Thousand Clues apply to Batman, and Winnie the Pooh, and the Tooth Fairy, and they apply to all those other mythical/fictional characters – including the ones purported to be gods.
Ain’t no Zeus, never was. Even Christians know it. Christians are Zeus-atheists. But they are also Ganesh-atheists, Allah-atheists, Quetzlcoatl-atheists, Mugugaboo-atheists, etc. I agree with them completely on this, but then go them one better by being a “God”-atheist.
The Big Magic Juju Guy, as I call him in all his many wishful-thinking forms, is simply not there. The Ten Thousand Clues say so.
This is clearly a rationally-defensible philosophical posture. The fact that you can’t get confused, superstitious people (or those who think the core of philosophy is to instantaneously think up juvenile counter-arguments to anything anyone says), does not diminish its impact.
4. What do you do for a living?
Currently, I’m a copyeditor for a big-city newspaper, but I’ve had more than 50 different jobs in more than a dozen different professions (including two entrepreneurial businesses): magazine editor, pastry chef, property manager, truck driver, meat-cutter, roofer, carpenter, porn star, asphalt plant technician, cowboy, draft horse driver, photographer, freelance writer, graphic designer, print broker, sign-maker. (Okay, I lied about the porn star part.)
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
Some college. And a high-mileage Life Odometer.
6. Anything else relevant to the conversation that you think might be important.
Religion is the single greatest horror ever to parasitize human minds. I understand how it came about – we grew into intelligence without the benefit of parents, so it was natural we’d be feral, and have silly superstitious ideas – but that doesn’t lessen my disturbance at the severe damage it’s done and is doing to us.
Those of us walking around today think THIS is civilization, and the things we all do are advanced and modern. For me, though, I often think this is an extraordinarily dark age, and that our descendants will look back on it and see us as those kids stranded on the island in Lord of the Flies. On the yardstick of what we COULD be, we’re only a half-inch further from zero than screaming savages capering over fresh carrion a hundred thousand years ago in equatorial Africa. And religion is the vicious, selfish witch-doctor who keeps us – entirely for his own benefit – frightened, and stupid, and blind, and HERE.
One of the worst poisons of religion, seems to me, is the idea that nothing can be good except that it has some of “My Religion” mixed in it. Thus, many people believe that you can’t have compassion, or kind acts, or morality, or justice, or even honesty, without their religion – and they’re so confused about it that if you do something they consider especially compassionate or kind or honest, they might even insist that you must be a member of their faith WITHOUT KNOWING IT. (This has happened to me more than once.)
To me, the Islamic extremists who flew planes into the World Trade Center are different only in degree, not in kind, from the Christian wackos who think evolution is some kind of evil plot, the teaching of which should be outlawed.
And if I follow the spectrum of religiosity from those points of extremity to progressively more benign levels of it, there is no point where I can confidently say “THIS amount of religion, right here, is totally harmless.”
…
(Forgive me for this shameless blog-whore bit: If you’ve read this far, I have some essays on some of this stuff, and some of my other philosophical/religious convictions on my www.HankFox.com website.)
on April 22nd, 2006 at 1:40 pm
I’ve also had people suggest I was a Christian because of my actions, Hank Fox! I’ve been told that I was “the most Christian atheist I’ve ever met.” I’ve also had people tell me that they’re convinced that I’m one step away from being Christian because of my morality, when really they’re neglecting the big important fact that I *don’t believe in the Bible*!! I’m nowhere close to being a Christian!
on April 22nd, 2006 at 2:01 pm
“intellectuals have observed that “atheism is dead.”
Primarily because those who have no belief system, no longer feel the need to justify their lack thereof. I have never stated that I am an atheist, yet I have had no belief system for the entirety of my, so far, long life.
Perhaps in the wake of Evangelism currently occurring within the US, which arrogantly seeks to denounce Theory of Evolution, which afterall is an extremely useful scientific tool but by no means the entire picture, you will see a resurgence. Because to challenge Darwin is to challenge science, which is ingnorance in the extreme.
Christianity is trying to morph the US into something it never was, nor intended to be … in the words of one of your founding fathers John Adams: “The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”
on April 22nd, 2006 at 2:06 pm
“Religion is the single greatest horror ever to parasitize human minds.”
I hope I remember that, well said!
on April 22nd, 2006 at 2:33 pm
Hank Fox - really good comment. I received the comment “The reason we would never have guessed you are an atheist is because you aren’t.” about a post I made a few weeks ago on my blog. I just didn’t know what to say to him about it! Too funny.
I think many people will recoil at some of the things you have said in your comment here, even some who are cautious non believers. I like the way you have laid it all out like this. It’s good stuff to think about.
on April 22nd, 2006 at 3:08 pm
(Off-topic I know)
Hank, Just been perusing your website, you are “da bomb”, as they say in current vernacular … thanks for the laughs.
I like this one very much, in particular the set-up: Pardon me, Republicans, but two-thirds of you people are stoooooopid.
on April 22nd, 2006 at 5:43 pm
Contemplator,
Me, the novice blogger, did not know I needed to click your name to get to your site, nor had I spoke about it with Kerry or Jess, that is why I asked.
The journal Jessica mentioned is the background paper to the book Faith of the Fatherless (Amazon) by New York University (Stanford 1962) psychology professor Paul C. Vitz. Qualifier: he does not say this applies to all atheists. Give his name a google to find the reprint of the paper. I think you will find it thougt-provoking.
You say you are “in the university” is that the non-profit biz you are in?
Also, is this still the best site to contact you, or would you prefer your site, or RR’s Forum?
on April 22nd, 2006 at 6:19 pm
Nancy, no, the university is most certainly not non profit, LOL. For what they pay us, though, you sure could make a case for it.
The non profit I help run is a literacy center for two counties. So I do two things. (More, really, but these are the most time consuming.)
I’m going to take these conversations over to the forum to keep poor Cassandra from getting an inbox slammed with post messages. I check my site daily, so depending on what you want, I suppose you could contact me there, or over at the forum.
on April 22nd, 2006 at 7:58 pm
1. What is your religion?
Triathlete
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
4 years
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
Flirted with it for a few years, then had a massive conversion experience in college. Plus I discovered that the roads are usually empty early Sunday mornings, which means I don’t have to worry about traffic when I’m getting my long ride.
4. What do you do for a living?
Facilities Engineer
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
BS in Mech Eng
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
Oh yeah, it seems retarded to have to say it but I don’t believe in fairy tale creatures like Vishnu, Jesus, Apollo, Baba Yaga, and Bigfoot.
on April 22nd, 2006 at 8:34 pm
The Bible needs authentication, but not from anything in this world. It receives its authentication from God who wrote it and He needs none. God needs no one to call Him God to know He is God.
The above is circular logic.
This whole discussion boils down to this: Much like children want to believe in Santa Claus, some people want to believe in a god.
No matter how much you want it, it doesn’t make it true.
A week or so ago I posted about The Dragon In My Garage. I think it spells things out pretty clearly.
on April 23rd, 2006 at 12:56 am
AdamC: 1. What is your religion?
Triathlete
Ha! touche. I am glad that someone deviated from the norm … I, myself, was going reply with “brushing my teething”, but quickly progressed to other ritualist practices … the mental tally became just too long, for I am indeed religious about many things, all of which elicit euphoric emotion (also have a penchant for alliteration it seems).
Obsessive-compulsive Disorder mmmm, one could present a nice syllogistic arguement (based on a false premise of course), applying about as much logic as theists employ.
on April 23rd, 2006 at 8:32 am
Thanks nottrue.
Thing is I’m really not kidding. I buy books, read magazines, internet, etc. Whenever I move to a new town, I look up the local triathlon/cycling/running store and try to connect with the community (like finding a church). When I’m out riding or running on a Sunday I’ll look over at anyone with me (or just note to myself) that some other poor suckers are stuck in a damn pew at this hour instead of being out having fun like us.
We even have some myths/legends that are loosely based on fact (Phidippides). And grand stories of epic battles (Dave Scott vs. Mark Allen year after year).
And when I find someone who expresses the slightest interest you should hear me evangelize to the high heavens, HALLELUJAH!
We are a non-abrahamic religion. I say that because the abrahamic religions are the only ones where the “faithful” are exhorted to kill those who follow a different path. We do not kill bowlers or skiers or couch-spuds. Non-abrahamic.
We even have a “Triathlete’s Bible” ;-)
Later.
Oh yeah, nice site Cassandra.
on April 23rd, 2006 at 10:22 am
Oh, I didn’t doubt you for one moment, I’ve known a few. Have you done Hawaii yet, it’s suppost to be zenith, as it were.
on April 23rd, 2006 at 10:25 am
Sorry … “supposed to be the Zenith”.
on July 10th, 2006 at 12:45 am
1. What is your religion?
Christian
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
23 years
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
A process between growing up in a Christian family, essentially sliding away from my faith in college, and returning to it later in college after a lot of reflection, study and personal experience. Long story short, I did my own exploration of faith, God, etc, and came to my conclusions.
4. What do you do for a living?
Regional Sales Manager
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
BA in political science, MS in public administration
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
I can appreciate other views, understand how easy it is to doubt the existence of God, but have seen the power of faith in God in my life. The hope, encouragement and joy that comes from a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
on March 6th, 2007 at 4:53 pm
1. What is your religion?
Christian
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
3-4 years… hard to say exactly when I started really trusting God
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
horrible high school experience: barely made it out got into drugs
started reading the bible because I didn’t really understand why I didn’t believe. I realized the only reason I didn’t believe was because I thought christians were ignorant, cruel and annoying.
I started talking with God and my life started to change. I went to college, got out of drugs, etc…
4. What do you do for a living?
student/ research
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
obtaining a bachelors in biochemistry and possibly a minor in evolutionary biology or mathematics
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
My faith is constantly attacked by “reason” at school, but a major factor in my belief was science and math, which I performed horribly in during high school. The more I learn about evolution, math and the human mind the more I believe that there is a God. I’m not saying there aren’t days that I don’t have doubts, but my experiences with God (the way my life has changed among other things) is more powerful then the mounds of evidence I find for either side of the debate.
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