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Let’s play a game
This game is a product of a few comments that were left during the War on Easter and the strike on a local church here in Columbus, Ohio.
A member of that church visited and left this comment:
>I am a Christian, I attend the big church you visited, I am not offended or threatened in any way by what you did. However, I would advise you to be very careful around this church or God might do to you what he did to me and reveal his love for you. It will drastically change your life and make you understand why we Christians look silly and sometimes do pretty stupid things.
He is madly in love with you and your very cute little kids!
And then left this comment:
>Cassandra, I was thanking God for you yesterday morning, and a thought came to mind from the 1980’s movie War Games. There was a line in the movie where the computer challenges its maker to a game. It said, “Do you want to play a game?”
>I think God is smiling upon the war on Easter. Enjoy the game!
Another commenter had this to say in response:
>[…]
>Kerry, if you want to play a real game, I dare you to research the religion you profess to bring “love.”
Kerry agreed and he we are. Edmond has agreed to join the game as well.
So the point of this “game” is to discuss Christianity with this Christian. Kerry has agreed to be open minded and to take a rational look at these beliefs, Christianity, and life. This is not about trying to change the mind of atheists. This is also not about conversion, for anyone. Kerry, if you disagree with something I’ve written here, let me know.
Yes, there are RULES.
No name calling.
No insults.
No threats.
RESPECT from both sides (atheists and theists alike).
Anyone who does not adhere to the above “rules” will be given a warning, and if they can not stick to the rules, their comments will be deleted.
Fair? If something isn’t clear or I missed something, let me know.
All right - theists, here are a few things that you need to answer for us first.
1. What is your religion?
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
4. What do you do for a living?
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
I’m not asking for a life story, just some background info.
If I edit anything in this original post, I will post it in the comments.
Let the game begin!!
on April 17th, 2006 at 5:52 pm
Hi Kerry,
My question (or suggestion) is for a thought exercise. I’m not asking you to change what you think but just to play along for the answer to this question.
Imagine that, somehow, it is found that there is no God. I don’t really think it’s possible to determine this, but just imagine that we have somehow determined this.
Would you change anything about the way you, as a Christian, live your life?
on April 17th, 2006 at 7:08 pm
hey Cassandra is anyone allowed to play this “game/challenge”?
on April 17th, 2006 at 7:18 pm
Yes Nicholas, this game is open to all! :-) Thanks for asking.
on April 17th, 2006 at 7:48 pm
I was raised thru catholic to a Baptist as a child then rebelling I even considered myself somewhat satanic, having grown out of that for the past 3 years or so I consider myself spiritual but not religious (if that makes any sense). I believe there is a powerful being out there but I don’t believe in organized religion. I believe ‘worship’ shouldn’t have to be more then a thank you during a quiet personal prayer or a outspoken dialogue during ones turmoil is enough. For me it goes back to the principal of a person and people, a person many times loses themselves in a group of people. Following the actions of a mob other then what they may have done if it was just them. One of the many things that led me to this way of thinking is the catholic church’s actions during the initial confrontations
In the initial stages of contact between European Christians and Native Indians people the attitude towards the Indians was that of Christian superiority. The Indians were read a proclamation in Spanish which they had no hope of understanding. They had no hope of understanding the death sentence they were being read, and it went something like this. “We ask and require you to acknowledge the church as the ruler and superior of the whole world and the high priest called pope and in his name the king of Spain as lords of this land. If you submit we shall receive you in all love and charity and shall leave you, your wives and children free without servitude, but if you do not submit we shall powerfully enter into your country and shall make war against you, we shall take you and your wives and your children and shall make slaves of them and we shall take away your goods and do you all the harm and damage we can.”
With Christian love and a moral authority they killed medicine men and stole a country. Forcing the Indians to get down on their knees and pray to the lord. Though they helped us survive the Christian soldiers laughed while they bled. Only for years later to deny what they did, as they write their own history. They hung Indians by thirteen in honor and reverence for their redeemer and their twelve apostles
The Spaniard soldiers made bets as to who could slit a man in two or cut off his head with one blow. They tore babies from their mother’s breast by their feet and dashed their head against the rocks. . They put wood underneath and with fire burned the Indians alive. In three simple words… Christians murdered Indians. I’m not saying its the fault of the religion but of organized religion men corrupted by power, money and opportunity
on April 17th, 2006 at 9:45 pm
Could I just ask that people be as concise as possible please? I think I got U_B’s point, but it was quite long and rambly at points. I think the whole thing will facilitate discussion better if we are as pithy as possible.
on April 17th, 2006 at 10:29 pm
1. What is your religion?
Christian
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
June 1991
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
Cassandra, I will explain my experience which you will see describes more of a relationship than an intellectual assent. Although I have thoroughly examined the claims of Jesus and find no equal, the following describes how I came to know Him personally.
I grew up thinking that religion was for weak people. I thought that if there was a God he forgot to teach me what is love.
I was a pretty good kid but found out good kids didn’t have very much fun. So I chased popularity through high school. It worked pretty well but I found myself becoming a fraud. I cheated on girls and lied to my friends.
I barely made it through college because of my partying and told many of my friends I was in search of the ultimate buzz. The buzz proved illusive and I eventually got married because that is what you are supposed to do when you graduate. I had an awesome little girl and bought a house. However, I was a pretty lousy dad and a worse husband.
My wife left me and I was very depressed. I plotted my suicide. A co-worker noticed my depression. He asked me what was wrong. I didn’t want to tell him because I knew he was a Christian and thought he would judge me. He finally persuaded me to tell him. When I did he told me he understood, that marriage was hard and he struggled too. I was blown away by his response. A couple days later I prayed and asked God to come into my heart.
The next day when I was driving to see a divorce attorney my world stopped. I felt as if God put his arm around me and said “Kerry, I love you, I am going to take care of you, it doesn’t matter what you have done in the past, we are going to make it through this together.” The shame from all my failures and guilt were suddenly gone, my heart was free and I found the ultimate buzz I had searched for so desperatly for in a budweiser bottle. I was able to and had the great desire to stop partying, cussing, and then live honestly. I now have a great marriage.
He has been there for me ever since - though I haven’t been as faithful. And now I do know what is Love!+
4. What do you do for a living?
Co-Director of a community center
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
College Degree
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
Cassandra, I would love to hear how you arrived at your belief’s!
on April 17th, 2006 at 10:30 pm
RR -If there was no God -Would you change anything about the way you, as a Christian, live your life?
I so sucked at living life on my own terms and paid dearly for it - If I could, I would certainly try and live the way I do now, but without God I wouldn’t have the power to do it.
on April 17th, 2006 at 10:41 pm
Kerry, so would you say that people who “find God” also have this personal experience, or is it religated to one particular relgion? I’ve never had that personal experience, and I was raised quite actively in church. I even had someone try to convice me that I did “know god” when I was little. I didn’t. I sincerely prayed for such experiences as you claim to have had. I never got them. Why would you say that was?
I’ve been an atheist since I was a child. It just took growing into an adult and reasoning out thoughts that were in m brain for years before I understood it. To each his own?
on April 18th, 2006 at 9:51 am
Cassandra, I would love to hear how you arrived at your belief’s!
Fair enough! :-)
1. What is your religion?
Atheist. :-)
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
3 years or so.
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
Ha! I couldn’t keep it short. You can read it here. I backdated it. I’ve been meaning to re-vamp the “about me” part of this blog anyway.
4. What do you do for a living?
I’m a Stay At Home Mom.
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
I’m damn lucky I made it through highschool. I hated school and spent most of my time partying. I didn’t go to class often at the end of highschool. I had the opportunity to go to college but I didn’t want to go to where my parents wanted to send me. So I opted out of college.
on April 18th, 2006 at 10:10 am
U_B, thanks for the post. What happend to the natives of this land is unspeakable. I wonder if history is repeating itself sometimes…
Contemplator, I agree. :-)
Kerry, thanks for answering my questions. I answered them too (just incase you missed it).
LOL, I think we had a similar experience in school, as far as the partying goes. I see that your path to Jesus (God?) goes through some pretty difficult times. I think it’s the same for a lot of people. I have seen it happen to someone I’m very close to recently.
So I always wonder if it’s the desperate need for something good and fulfilling that brings some people to the place you are now. Do you think that the it’s possible that when you prayed that day in the car, that it wasn’t God but just you deciding to become a person that you wanted to be? Why do you think that it took praying to get you to this point? Was it something that you weren’t able to do on your own? Couldn’t you have simply made the decision to pick yourself up?
on April 18th, 2006 at 11:45 am
1.What is your religion?
None. I’m an ex-fundamentalist Christian and an atheist.
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
I quit being a Christian about 25 years ago and ceased to believe in any god or goddess over 10 years ago.
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
Studying mythology and religions, reading the bible, researching the history of Christianity, etc.
4. What do you do for a living?
I am an investor, stay-at-home mom, poet and photographer. (Only one of those is my “living”, the others are my life.)
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
BA in psychology, cum laude.
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
My poem which I wrote in an attempt to address many of the most prevalent assumptions believers have about nonbelievers. (I’ll put slashes where the line breaks are supposed to be in case it loses its format):
I Am An Atheist
It is not for a lack of desire,/
for who would not want an Omnipotent Being/
looking out for one’s welfare,/
protecting one’s loves?/
It is not for a streak of rebellion,/
for I live my life no differently/
than most who believe in God./
It is not for disappointment/
in prayers unanswered,/
for my life is good./
Some call it “blessed”./
It is not due to misunderstanding,/
for once I believed as they do,/
bible at my bed, read through/
dark nights of doubt,/
praises to God in the morning./
It is not due to anger at clergy,/
nor encountering the wrong church/
or hypocrite laity,/
for I’ve known many wonderful believers./
It is not hatred, fear, pride,/
selfishness, or lack of education;/
It is not bigotry, persecution, or immorality/
that prevents me from believing./
I am an atheist,/
not believing in the gods of today/
for the same reason believers/
disbelieve/
in the gods of yesterday./
on April 18th, 2006 at 12:12 pm
Michelle,
That is cool poem and my answers to the questions are pretty much the same except I was a xian for just a few years, though a serious one who read the bible daily.
on April 18th, 2006 at 12:14 pm
Except, I’m an accountant and have an accounting degree.
on April 18th, 2006 at 12:50 pm
Michelle, love the poem. The last part is great!
Contemplator said:
I sincerely prayed for such experiences as you claim to have had. I never got them.
I longed for the experience that Kerry had as well. When I was in that Catholic school when I was younger, I wanted to “feel” God very badly and prayed for it too.
Kerry (and anyone else who has had that experience) is it possible that you wanted so badly to have a reason to continue to live that the experience you had was psychological? I think that this is what I was trying to get at in my last comment. I wonder if it is at all possible that it’s a coping mechanism rather than God.
on April 18th, 2006 at 1:01 pm
Thanks for the comments on the poem!
Cassandra… I had those experiences when I believed. A sense of euphoria, of connectedness with “God”, etc. I’ve also had them since I stopped believing, only it’s not a connectedness with “God” but a sense of “oneness with the Universe” or with “nature”, or with “humanity”. I think many of us have had the same or similar feelings. I think those feelings are part of being human. (I also think they are sometimes products of our own physiology, of endorphins, of what we’ve been eating or drinking or smoking… Even just the feel of the sun on our skin can give us that overall sense of wellbeing…) Believers, and/or people who want to believe, attribute that feeling to “God”.
on April 18th, 2006 at 2:27 pm
1. What is your religion?
Christian
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
10 years
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
Just went to church with my parents and one time at my young age (of 6) i relized that what was happening to my parents was really cool and i wanted to be apart of that and since that choice its been extremly awesome for me.
4. What do you do for a living?
student
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
still in highschool
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
Just that my life has been pretty hard resently. like at one point i just decided to leave Jesus. but then my life got so much worse so i went back to Him and then from then on my life has begun to get better. slowly at that but still.
on April 18th, 2006 at 2:51 pm
Hello there, i’ve been wondering something for a very long time about athiest.
If you dont believe there is a God, then what do you have to lose to believe that there is a God?
like if there is no God then well u end up in Hell or whatever you believe in, but if you believe there is a God and it ends up there isn’t then wouldn’t you end up in the same place?
I just dont get how people can believe in nothing at all. like atleast in believing in a God you have hope, and hope is one of many things that keep people going. like soldiers in wartime, they have hope that they will beat the enemy and wont die, but if they didn’t have that hope then how good do you think the military would be? it would be like the French (no offense to any French people) that just loose every war they are in, the reason why they lose is because they dont have hope that they can beat them (among many reasons why they lose). I guess i just dont get how people can believe in “Nothing” cause like, if you believe in nothing then well i take it you dont believe in air? cause i believe theres air out there. i’m not trying to bash anyone out there i just dont get anything about athiest. like i’m a Christian and i go to the same church that Kerry Davis goes to and i dont know i just cant figure out how people can not believe in anything.
P.S: did you know that the early Christians in Rome were called athiest?… just a little fact. cya guys
on April 18th, 2006 at 3:16 pm
Peppy, thanks for asking. Don’t mind these types of questions at all because the more you know about “us” the better.
If you dont believe there is a God, then what do you have to lose to believe that there is a God?
For me, what I have to lose is my entire life. I don’t want to live my entire life for a god that no one knows is there just in case… Talk about a lot of wasted time and effort!
like if there is no God then well u end up in Hell or whatever you believe in, but if you believe there is a God and it ends up there isn’t then wouldn’t you end up in the same place?
Ok, just to clairify, atheists don’t believe in hell. Or heaven. When we die, we die. That’s it. Just like a plant (unless people believe in plant heaven - I don’t know).
As far as hope goes, I have plenty of hope. I have hope for my future, my family, I try to have hope for my country. You don’t need a god to have hope. Believe me. All of the atheists that you will meet here are living proof. I live a good, honest, fulfilling life just like anyone else. The difference is that I don’t hold on to what I consider a myth.
P.S: did you know that the early Christians in Rome were called athiest?… just a little fact.
I’m not sure where you heard that but it’s not true.
[link]
Thanks for coming by Peppy! Hope to hear from you again. :-)
on April 18th, 2006 at 3:24 pm
Nicholas, thanks for your comment. I wanted to ask you what exactly it was that you saw happening for your parents that you wanted to be a part of?
Do you think that it’s at all possible for you to get the same type of fulfillment in your life without going to church? What is it that you are getting from church and god?
You say that your life has been hard lately. I remember… High school was some of the hardest years - for soooo many people. You say you left Jesus and things got worse. Coincidence?? You say when you went back to him, things got better. Do you think that the fact that things got worse for you was based on your guilt for turning away from Jesus?
on April 18th, 2006 at 4:04 pm
Hi Peppy,
Good question. You have a really interesting point of view that I wasn’t aware of until recently.
Most atheists not only do not believe in God, but they do not believe in any supernatural. Why? Because there is no evidence that would lead one to believe that there is supernaturalism in this universe. The supernatural is an invention of human kind to satisfy our intense desire to know everything. Gradually, as we learn more and more research techniques, we are beginning to realize that there are natural explanations for everything, it just takes time to get them, and understand them.
There is, for example, no evidence of any “eternal soul”. Our personality is made up physically inside our brain. There is much more to learn but contrary to popular belief, we do know a lot about how our personality is based on physical characteristics of our brain. When we die, life is simply over. We don’t “go” anywhere. Our energy of course breaks down and returns to the earth, but there’s no consciousness there.
That doesn’t scare us. In fact, I would ask you to consider this… The idea of eternal life is not only bazarre it is frightening. What happens when you get sick of it? Multiply your life by a trillion, and notice that you’re nowhere even close to eternity… can you really imagine having to go on that long?? In addition, if the Christian world-view is correct, then how do you explain how everyone is happy in Heaven, even though billions of their friends, family, coworkers, and others are suffering eternal torment in Hell?
Note, I am not admitting that Heaven or Hell could exist, just posing a question about your world-view.
I really don’t understand this concept of “hope”. What is it about religion that gives you hope? Is this life so miserable that you need hope that the next one will be better? I view this as extremely counter-productive. It gives people no reason to get off their butts and make their life (this life!) better. When people realize that this is their only chance, maybe they will learn to make the most of it.
Your comments about the military are interesting, because it shows my point perfectly. When you’re at war, and you’re being fired upon, there are at least two things people have been known to do. Pray, or focus on the events of the attack and react appropriately (fire back, retreat, etc.). In this case, the ones who pray are the ones who die.
Atheists do not believe in nothing, they just lack belief in a deity. They can believe in all sorts of things, like air, family, compassion, etc.
What is the meaning of life? The answer is simple. You give meaning to your own life. You can give it any meaning you want. Don’t get hung up on the ancient concept that for us to be here, there must have been a reason.
I would strongly recommend any Christian who is curious about atheism to carefully read “Why doesn’t God Heal Amputees” at http://www.whydoesntgodhealamputees/ It’s a good read, in my opinion. Very easy to read, yet thorough and concise.
Hope that helps!
on April 18th, 2006 at 4:39 pm
Hey, Peppy! I think the questions are fair.
My simple response is that I wish to live my life without laboring under illusions. I want reality, not myths, propping up the way I live and how I think. I want reality, common sense, and reason to determine how I live and treat people. Do you think you could be good to people without having God tell you so? Lots of atheists think so. Atheism isn’t a belief in “nothing”, but rather just not believing in god. I don’t believe in Zeus, Odin or any of the other pantheon of gods to trot through human civilization. The Christian God is basically just one more god I don’t believe in but you do.
I think a lot of people are turned on to Christianity because they like the pretty picture of heaven. It takes more courage, I think, to make something out of this life now, rather than expecting a deity to makes something out of it for you.
on April 18th, 2006 at 4:44 pm
I think there is very much something to the “psychological” effect of thinking God has touched you personally. I’ve gotten those same feelings out of non profit work, which is what I do. You feel better when you have those feelings, and our Western culture is so saturated with Christianity that you would automatically attribute that feeling to the Christian god. Feeling guilty and “watched” on the other hand, I know makes some people feel that god “disapproves” of what they’re doing. Why couldn’t that just be your own guilt complex at work?
I think what this discussion is ultimately going to boil down to is that as a Christian you just have to have faith. Period. You can’t prove God exists. You just have to have faith he’s there. And for atheists, well, I for one like reason. So I don’t take most things on faith. And there we will come to an impasse.
on April 18th, 2006 at 4:50 pm
1. What is your religion?
None. Culturally Jewish. Go to church with my Christian wife.
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
Since early adulthood. It crystalized in my late-teens .
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
Judaism had a bit too much meaningless (to me) ritual. As I learned about the world it became clear that God was an idea that evolved through the ages.
4. What do you do for a living?
Computer system work.
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
BA, philosophy
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
Ask away.
on April 18th, 2006 at 5:01 pm
Cassandra, I’ve also read that the early Christians were refered to as “atheists” due to their not worshipping the Roman gods. Here is a link to info on that: http://www.darkfiber.com/atheisms/atheisms/paganathsm.html
Peppy, atheists don’t believe in “nothing”. We just don’t believe in gods. I believe in myself, my loved ones, my friends, the human potential for doing good, and many other wonderful things. It does not take a belief in any god to give me hope. No belief in any god would make me love my son more, appreciate my friendships more, increase my natural human urge to help where I can, or intensify my simple enjoyment of the many positive aspects of being alive. Christians often present this argument, but I cannot help but wonder why they don’t see how that argument works against them. You suggest that we atheists should just go ahead and believe “just in case” there really is a god, but don’t you see that Jesus is not the only possible god? Why don’t YOU worship Ganesh “just in case” it’s really all about an Indian fertility god? What if there IS a god and that god is Allah? Why don’t you believe in ALL the gods, “just in case”? In addition, I truly don’t understand how it is that one can just “choose” to believe something they don’t believe…. Can I just decide that I do believe in alien abductions just because someone tells me to? Can you?
on April 18th, 2006 at 8:28 pm
Michelle, thanks for pointing that out!! I actually did a search on “early christianity” and “atheism” but as you can imagine, there were millions of results. :-)
Thank you to all of you for the participation!! Great conversation going on here.
on April 18th, 2006 at 10:57 pm
The Lord tells us to love and bless our enemies…
If I were to stop from being a Christian, I would CONDAMN you all!!!
But okkkk… I’ll just pray for you all little anti-Christs who disguise as atheists.
The only problem that i have with ATHEISTS is that they have no God, thus they may have no moral
rules and stuff - exceptions are probably abundant, of course. Yet my problem is with those so-called
“atheists” whom not only “Don’t believe in God” (or a god), but rather go and persecute
CHRISTIANITY. Why not other religions? Why? What did God do to them? And if they feel that
God did do something to them, isn’t that then revenge, and thus they do believe in God, or a god?
If the “atheists” do not want to be preached, then have a gentle, nice, informative, healthy, and REAL
debate and conversation rather than a stupid persecution on Christianity!
on April 19th, 2006 at 12:02 am
Wow - I don’t know where to start! There are some really neat people on this site.
Contemplator- I don’t know why you didn’t experience God as a child. I remember praying for twins who both loved God and one experienced his presence the other didn’t. Who knows? I do know that the other twin who didn’t have the experience kept pursuing God and enjoys a heathly relationship with God to this day.
Different churches focus on different things. My church tries to do the whole Bible, serving the poor, praying for the sick, sharing Jesus, developing an intimate relationship with God etc.
Contemplator, if you still want to explore pursuing this experience my email is kerrywdavis@yahoo.com.
Cassandra, I enjoyed your story of how you arrived at your beliefs. I really think it stinks that you were laughed at in class. In fact, the entire treatment you received in organized religion sucked.
As for your question: Kerry - is it possible that you wanted so badly to have a reason to continue to live that the experience you had was psychological? I think that this is what I was trying to get at in my last comment. I wonder if it is at all possible that it’s a coping mechanism rather than God.
A few days before I committed my life to Christ, I raged at my two year old daughter to stop singing Jesus loves me (I have it on videotape) I hated God, I hated the sound of the name Jesus. Why did I hate Him? I didn’t hate Buhda. Jesus was certainly not the coping mechanism I would have chosen at that time.
I’ve had psychological experiences, when I was in college I tried mushrooms. I had a blast. I spent 4 hours in a bathroom laughing with my buddies about the different inventions that people had come up with (pretty stupid huh?) I told my buddies I need to tell my dad about this drug, that I found out what life is all about!
I am easily bored, my interest in new hobbies never lasts more than a few months and then I am on to the next thing. I would be bored of a coping mechanism in a few days. My fascination with God has been going on for 15 years and gets better and more interesting every year.
on April 19th, 2006 at 12:05 am
With responses like condamn you, I totally get why people choose atheism.
on April 19th, 2006 at 3:59 am
1. What is your religion?
None
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
Most of my life.
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
Raised Quaker, brief marriage to a Catholic, spent 5 years with a Buddhist and for 14 years now happily married to a Jewish man. Throughout this time, even in childhood, I do not ever remember actually believing in a supernatural god. However, until recently I thought that this meant I was an agnostic. Recently, I came to realize that I am an athiest.
4. What do you do for a living?
mother, ITS, customer service and write, mother
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
Tech school, some college,life
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
I believe that we often forget how much we have in common, which makes me sad sometimes.
I believe in goodness, compassion, forgiveness and kindness.
I believe in tolerance.
I believe that fear is often behind intolerance. I believe in science.
I believe that we have one life that we should make the best of, and that we should strive to be good citizens of the planet and the human race. That when we make mistakes, we should remedy them. That we should forgive others as well as ourselves.
I find strength in simply having faith in my fellow human beings. I have a lot of faith in love. Some of the most moral people I have met have been athiests.
There are no guarantee’s that things will go our way in life, no matter what religion we practice. I choose to accept that. I don’t need a god for that.
on April 19th, 2006 at 5:04 am
1. What is your religion?
Independent Baptist/Christian
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs: 1972
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs: Born and raised in the Catholic church. Stopped believing in God/thought the Bible a man made thing to keep others under control. Hard to totally explain in a short space but God started dealing with my life, through different ways, I couldn’t seem to escape it. Clearly heard a message on “Salvation through Christ”, repented of my sins, trusted Christ for salvation, was “Born Again”. Didn’t have an experience like Kerry talks about then, but did have an emotional type of event happen later on when I had backslidden into sin.
4. What do you do for a living? U.S. Air Force currently deployed to Iraq
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing. Associates Degree in Aerospace Engineering
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important. Well, some folks seem interested in the emotional event that may or may not accompany a salvation experience; its not needed to prove anything but I think is what can be a natural result of realizing your sins are forgiven and you are going to spend eternity with God.
Another thing I would like to address is the word hope. Many times when the Bible refers to hope, like the hope of eternal life, its not referring to a desire that may or may not be fulfilled like in “I sure hope it don’t rain today!” Often the hope spoke of in the Bible is for a future event that will happen, just not sure when. Kind of like the idea of when women use to have “hope chests” for the day they would marry, at least I don’t think women still do that do they? I think the word hope is being used here more like having a positive attitude that things will work out or something along that line.
I for one don’t believe that being an Athiest means being void of morals and in fact, sad to say, some Athiests may live a more moral life than a believer. This may sound contradictory to some, but I think that in some cases it is true.
Jason, there is a third option that you didn’t mention and that would be to pray and react, and possibly pray while reacting. I would dare say that there would be a few athiest who would no doubt react while evoking the name of a diety in that situation also. But please don’t equate being a Christian and a man/woman of prayer as being weak in the face of battle. Some of our country’s greatest militaty leaders where men of Faith.
RR asks that if it were found out, proven that there was no God would I still believe? First, let me of course say that will never be proven because it’s not true–There is a God! I had to say this disclaimer before I said this next part. No, I wouldn’t believe in God if He didn’t exist, what would be the point?
Good discussion going here Cassandra, if nothing else we may all better understand each other even if we don’t agree with each other.
on April 19th, 2006 at 8:11 am
Mueleski: Actually what I was asking was, if you knew for sure that there were no god, would you change anything about the way you live?
Thanks, btw, for noting that you don’t have to be religious to act ethically.
on April 19th, 2006 at 9:03 am
I guess I should play the game properly here:
1. What is your religion?
Atheist/Bright/Zen Buddhist (not a religion, actually)
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
For-sure-atheist, the last 4 years. I was almost always skeptical and for a while I guess I was agnostic.
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
Atheist — never saw any evidence of a god, and one by one as I learned more about physics, biology, etc the things I needed god to explain went away.
Bright — just sort of comes along with being an atheist, I think.
Zen Buddhist — Zen Buddhism is a well-refined mechanism for observing and changing the way your own mind works. There are some Buddhist sects that believe in literal reincarnation and such, Tibetans for example… Zen buddhists in general and I in particular do not.
4. What do you do for a living?
Graduate student/research assistant, study heart attacks with computer models
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
Bachelors of Science in Engineeering - major of Biomedical Enginering and some grad school in the same. Working on a PhD (fingers crossed).
on April 19th, 2006 at 9:26 am
Wow, I’ve never been “CONDAMNED” before. I’m pretty sure my insurance doesn’t cover it.
I have nothing but respect for Christians (and other religious people) who do live a good life and treat others fairly, etc. I disagree with them when they want to shove their standards onto others. Christians would be up in arms if the Jewish faith tried to make all the food comply to kosher standards or else it couldn’t be sold. They’d be pretty aggravated if they didn’t get time off for their holidays, too, although plenty of other minority religions don’t get time off. Those Christians I have no use for, and are pretty dangerous to the fabric of society.
If one believes God “graces” some and not others, even though both kinds sincerely pray, then that strikes me as predestination. In which case, what difference does it make?
Kerry, I get those same feelings from non profit work. No worship of any kind involved. I came to realize it was the only part of “church” I had ever truly found fulfilling. But you certainly don’t need a church to feel good about doing the “right” thing.
I don’t feel like my “hope” is the kind of “I hope it doesn’t rain today.” My hope rests more in my own hands, and not in some vague afterlife which I may or may not get depending on whether (or not) predestination kicks in.
on April 19th, 2006 at 10:17 am
Contemplator,
I was trying to describe the nuances of the word hope especially in reference to a Biblical hope. A Biblical hope is something that is sure to happen sometime in the future, and a Christian is looking forward to. I’m not saying that you have to agree with the idea but I’m trying to explain what I understand the Biblical meaning of the word to be.
So, if I were to say “I have a hope of heaven,” it doesn’t mean some vague afterlife which I may or may not get(your words). It means it is as sure as I’m breathing that I’m going.
Now you say “I don’t feel like my “hope” is the kind of “I hope it doesn’t rain today.” My hope rests more in my own hands.” But that doesn’t clear up to me what you mean by hope?
If you would, can you please explain what you mean by hope?
on April 19th, 2006 at 10:22 am
RR,
Sorry, I misunderstood.
Yes, I would stop going to church, stop reading my Bible, stop having family devotions, stop praying, stop tithing, and stop arguing with Athiest!
on April 19th, 2006 at 11:29 am
1.What is your religion?
Christianity
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
15 years
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs. In a time of desperation, fell upon the only person that could promise to never leave me or forsake me. So far he has backed it up.
4. What do you do for a living? Teacher Assistant in public school
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
BS Education
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
I saw that there’s a lot of interesting people on here, so I thought I would contribute what seems good.
I too, like the commenter at the top of the page, think God is smiling on the War on Easter. I think he loves the zeal and boldness that he has instilled in his children. I think he gave these people the chutzpah and the freedom to do what they are doing.
My answer to RR’s question: If it were proven that God didn’t exist, I would discard the process by which we come to proof, and attribute it to human fallibility. But– just so I don’t seem like I’m evading the question: If I DID somehow come to the conclusion that God didn’t exist, I would want to live my life as I am now, but it would be impossible. I would slide into the numerous sicknesses and dysfunctional behaviors that predominated “BC”.
There’s two ways of interpreting that: either the human mind is capable of great reversal when there is a strong belief(delusion), OR there is as external agent of transformation. Something entered into these people. How can you look at another and really say which? It really comes down to personal revelation.
There is a line from Rich Mullins “I did not make it, no it is making me.” This describes me pretty well.
on April 19th, 2006 at 12:37 pm
1)I am a believer (in Christ as God’s son) and through him I have a relationship with God.
2)I have claimed those beliefs for 21 years due to a realization through God’s word, the testimony of my family, and God’s working in the environment around me.
3)I am a director of a Sports Organization for Kids and will be entering seminary in the fall to aid me in a calling to be a pastor.
4)I have a BS in Computer Engineering
First let me say that we persuasion is futile. As a Christ follower, my job is not to persuade or argue, but to speak the truth plainly, and in love and kindness. (2nd Timothy 2:24-26 & 2nd Corinthians 4:2). I don’t put scripture reference as a proof to you of reality, rather so you understand that my words are not my own, but are based on what I believe to be the infallable word of God.
Secondly, remember that not all that claim to Christian are. Read Matthew 5-7. Pay special attention to 7:22. Jesus says that many will say they “knew” him, but Jesus will say, “I never knew you”. I think bitterness toward the church or those that claim The GOD is their god should not be tied up in bitterness toward God.
Finally, I would encourage anyone, believer or not to read C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity. He was a former atheist and describe s his reasoning behind following Christ. He does a great job of communicating the Christian faith. It is a very interesting read. I am happy to also take suggestions from anyone with another viewpoint about good reads.
My prayer is that we all know the Truth. I am sure that is what everyone here is interested in.
on April 19th, 2006 at 4:58 pm
To be vague and more clear at the same time, my “hope” doesn’t require that God step in and clear things up. My hope is more of the sort where if anything is going to be done, I have the ability to get it done. If the world is to be improved, I am to do it. I fully understand what “the hope of going to heaven” means. I was raised in a Christian household, and held those beliefs more or less rigidly for 18 years. I was pretty skillful at arguing from and with the Bible versus other texts. So I do think I understand what you’re saying. But, you *don’t* know whether or not you’re going to heaven. No one does. Most Christian sects believe that. It’s not something you’re told beforehand. You can be “saved”, but that doens’t mean you get a free pass into the afterlife. Unless, I guess, that’s what your sect of Christianity teaches. I would say that’s still a fairly uncertain hope. I think heaven for most people is a good thought to put into their heads in a world so often filled with tragedy and sorrow. It’s easier to cope when someone dies by believing you can see them again in heaven. That doesn’t make it any more realisitic to me.
on April 19th, 2006 at 5:20 pm
That first comment was very threatening. What can we think about all those bible-readers who think they can threaten people whenever thay want? When i read it I was disgusted to the bone.
1.What is your religion?
Atheist
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
17 years
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
Studying history and observing nature.
4. What do you do for a living?
Physician
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
Subspecialty of Internal Medicine
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
The more education, the less mythology and superstition
on April 19th, 2006 at 5:28 pm
To answer your question about what i saw in my parents is this…
When i was young my parents would drag me to these conferences and all i wanted to do was go home. but at some point in time during one of the many conferences i noticed that my parents were up front being prayed for and all and i saw them begin to cry and fall to the ground and all and then afterwords they would be the most joyful thing i have ever saw and i wanted that joy and all so i asked for Jesus to come into my heart and He’s stayed ever since.
Next question, can i get the same fulfillment without going to church?
i dont think so. like when i get far away from God (aka not spending time with Him just talking and such) i felt so disconnected and cant think straight and couldn’t pay attention and all that stuff. but then when i spend time with Him, i would feel happy and i could think, i am just a really really cheerful person when i spend time with Him.
final question, walking away things got worse, coincidence?
No, cause when i walked away, i allowed Satan to have a foothold in my life for that time being and all and he knew all my weakest points and i just felt horrible and when i told Jesus “Can You just forget that i walked away?” (not in those words but thats pretty much what i asked) and after that i was getting happier and happier and things have been getting eaiser for me and i dont know its just AWESOME. so yea…
Hope these answered your questions… if not then well just tell me haha… cya
on April 19th, 2006 at 6:59 pm
1. What is your religion?
Atheist.
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
About 3 years. Before that, I was a “liberal” Christian.
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
Education at college. I took classes in biology, evolution, anthropology and philosophy. I came to realize my “religious knowledge” wasn’t knowledge at all, since it conflicted with established science and history.
4. What do you do for a living?
Write for a magazine.
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
College graduate, summa cum laude.
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
Nothing really. Just that nature’s laws cannot be “turned off” when discussing The Resurrection or something similarly impossible. If an alleged event violates nature’s laws, it didn’t happen.
on April 19th, 2006 at 10:00 pm
Just wanted to tell everyone that I am keeping up on the comments but I haven’t really had the time to sit down and respond to everyone. It’s spring break here. :-)
I do want to say that I am LOVING the fact that we are all being open, honest and KIND in these comments. Great job all around.
Oh, and to “Condamn you” - I’ll just let that one slide because it’s too funny and I don’t think that anyone was actually offended by being called an “anti-Christ.”
Keep up the conversation! I’ve learned a lot about the “feeling” that Christians experience, and I’ve also learned that I am the only one who didn’t freaking go to college. LOL! Oh, except for the one who condamns us. Probably…
on April 19th, 2006 at 10:22 pm
First timer. Why do people care so much about religion? I don’t understand, if we weren’t created/designed then we are here by chance/no meaning to life. We can’t prove that God doesn’t exist or exist. Christians are either fools for believing or they are right, period! I don’t know where I stand but for some reason every religion(that includes atheists) is threatend by christianity. The funny thing is that atheist don’t want christians/their God to have any place in America but the religion of atheism is trying to do the samething, by having their atheism religious thinking all over America. But I find that kinda amusing. If those christians are right, then I better try to have a full life, for this is the only world we have to look forward too. I don’t know if I should be sad or not but people START ENJOYING EVERY MINUTE OF YOUR LIFE.
on April 19th, 2006 at 10:34 pm
“I don’t know where I stand but for some reason every religion(that includes atheists [no, atheism means lack of religion –RR]) is threatend by christianity. The funny thing is that atheist [sic] don’t want christians/their God to have any place in America but the religion of atheism [*cough* –RR] is trying to do the samething [sic], by having their atheism religious thinking all over America.”
Actually I’d be perfectly happy to let people do whatever they want religiously as long as they keep me out of it and don’t use my tax dollars to cram it down my and others’ throats. It doesn’t mean I’d agree with them, but the key thing is separation of church and state. What a lot of Christians don’t realize is that it’s the very separation of church and state they wish to ignore that lets them practice the way they want to. But as long as the government is endorsing their point of view, well that’s okay.
I already do enjoy every moment of my life. The present is the only time that I have, because the past is gone and the future hasn’t happened yet. I try all the time to be present in the Now.
on April 19th, 2006 at 11:11 pm
RR, Right on. You said it.
Anonymous, I don’t know any athiests who feel threatened by Christianity. Most non believers I know are the most tolerant overall of peoples right to believe what they choose. Instead, I think what RR said, is exactly what many athiests, nonbelievers, agnostics, moderates, jews & plenty of others feel. This isn’t about feeling that there is no place in America for Christians, most will agree, I think, that there is room for all of us. It is simply that the church does not belong in our government. A government without the church is not an athiest government. It is a government that allows everyone to practice their own faith. If the church is influencing our laws, then it is inevitable that the rights of those of different faith will be trampled on.
on April 19th, 2006 at 11:29 pm
1. What is your religion?
I prefer no religion/ no label, but for this - an Atheist.
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs? I have recently accepted it, but my husband will tell you that I have been this way for a very long time. He has known me for 10 years.
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs. I as a child believed, but why would “God” not answer my prayers. As a teenager I wanted to believe, but due to events of my life the illusion of something greater than myself I questioned. As a young adult higher education made me realize that there was a reason for the “Gods/God” system. Now as an adult, I have an understanding as to why I rejected “Gods/God”, and had always struggled with the whole belief process. I embrace being a “thinking” person. I do not need someone or something to tell me how to be good, what is right, what is wrong. I could easily go off here and just rant for pages but that would not be appropriate. My instinct has always led me in life, it was the notion of “God” that led me astray. To actually think that something was protecting me, looking out for my best interest. Sorry no heartfelt religious stories here folks.
4. What do you do for a living? I work for a bank.
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
College (did not finish ran out of money) and life.
6. Anything else relevant to the conversation that you think might be important. I wish that folks who think differently could see what I have seen, been to the places I’ve been, could meet the people I’ve met, feel the things I’ve felt. Then I think they would understand why it is so hard for me to buy into the hypocrisy. I have more tolerance than most folks I know. I respect the environment. I respect people who are different than me. I did not learn this from going to mass but from my parents, family, friends, associates and many others. The thing I learned the most was How “NOTâ€Â? to act towards another human or living thing.
I do not live in order to die.
on April 19th, 2006 at 11:49 pm
This is an awesome topic. I wasn’t sure if I should join (the other day) but since there are so many here I think I will.
1. What is your religion?
Asetian
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs?
About 14 years
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs.
I began to question everything I was raised to believe. For instance, I couldn’t understand why god, if he was our “father” would put us in an oven (hell) to punish us. I couldn’t believe that we only have one chance to get it right. And why did I need a middleman to talk to god, anyway? So, I did a lot of inner searching, thinking, dreaming, etc, and here I am. Ok, there’s probably more, but this is the short version.
4. What do you do for a living?
I’m a mom.
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing.
I had two years of pre-law. Nothing more after that.
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important.
I am the only one on earth that practices my religion. How do I know? I completely made it up- well, the name anyway. I did that to annoy fundamental Pagans who say that the only real religion is an ancient religion. I added the “ian” part to annoy fundamental Christians who tell me I’m the devil’s servant and am going to hell.:)
Thanks for bringing this up, Cassandra. I really enjoyed reading everyone’s response.
on April 20th, 2006 at 1:56 am
1.I am a Christian first and foremost.
2.The beginning of my faith is not as important as the end of it.
3.To keep it simple, God saved me. Jesus Christ died in my place on a cross 2000 years ago and that’s why I believe.
4.I am a student of everything and am called to be a missionary.
5.I have a BA in Political Science and am working on a Masters of Divinity.
6.The most important thing to understand is that God is real. From the beginning of time, He has chosen ways to reveal Himself to all. However, His own creatures chose to disobey Him and were separated. Humans stand in need of reconciliation. The most overt of these revelations was in what is known as the incarnation. God became a man. He has reached out to His own and they did not know Him. He stated that He is the only means of salvation and eternal life. Therefore, He is either telling the truth and should be worshiped, He is a madman and should be ignored, or He is a liar and should be scoffed. However, He does not leave the option for anyone to claim His teachings to be good morals or good values. He never intended to leave such an option available. He validated His truth by returning to life physically after His death to reconcile humankind to God. If this is not the truth, then the Apostles were maniacs because each and every one of them believed Him to their own deaths (except one who was exiled and placed in a vat of boiling water) and no man dies for a known lie. His Kingdom is at hand and He is humanity’s hope. He will return and establish His reign forever. At His Name every knee will bow and every tongue will confess (this includes you even if you think you are an atheist) that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
6B. Therefore, the only thing that is important on this earth is to be found in Jesus of Nazareth. Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. By His stripes, we are healed.
Many will not understand this and will say I’m too preachy. That’s okay. The Holy Spirit speaks through the Gospel plainly spoken and effectively calls all who will believe.
Peace to you all,
Jason Doty
on April 20th, 2006 at 3:03 am
RR, That’s how I feel about my tax dollars being used to cram “evolution”, an unproven theory, down the throats of our school children.
Sandra, but a government that didn’t believe in God would be an athiestic government and they haven’t had a good track record have they? It was basically a God fearing group of men who formed our great government and wrote our constitution. Throughout the development of our country in to a world superpower, our country basically followed a judeo-christian value system. Now that seems to be waning and meanwhile so is our signifigance in the world and possibly our position as the worlds only superpower (its a fragile thing and we find ourselves standing on very thin ice). Is this a coincidence? As our government begins to embrace and protect lifestyles that go against the judeo-christian ethic, we seem to be loosing ourselves and our way in the world scene.
It wasn’t only the philosophy of the judeo-christian work ethic and lifestyle that made us great–It was also God’s blessing on a nation that honored Him! If as a nation we turn our backs on God, He will turn His back on us.
on April 20th, 2006 at 3:42 am
Hi all,
Prophecy was one of the areas of my interest that God used to reach me. I found this interesting article online:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49826
What is truth?
on April 20th, 2006 at 7:51 am
Mueleski:
“That’s how I feel about my tax dollars being used to cram “evolution”, an unproven theory, down the throats of our school children.”
Actually, that evolution occurs is a fact. Otherwise we wouldn’t be worried about antibiotic-resistant bacteria and mutating bird flu. As to evolution via natural selection from basic chemicals to humans, well, all of the evidence we have points to it, and so that’s what belongs in science class. Teaching children that god created Adam and Eve belongs in church, not in school.
As to our country, please read some of the autobiographies of the people who wrote the constitution and established the country. They were very cautious about keeping religion out of the government. Most of them were Deists or closet atheists, and even if they were Christian, they didn’t have a high opinion of the church.
“It wasn’t only the philosophy of the judeo-christian work ethic and lifestyle that made us great–It was also God’s blessing on a nation that honored Him! If as a nation we turn our backs on God, He will turn His back on us.”
Actually, it was an embrace of free-market capitalism and a desire to keep monarchs and God out of the government.
on April 20th, 2006 at 7:55 am
I should add that as we turn more to God (see: George W. Bush) we seem to be getting ourselves in more trouble.
on April 20th, 2006 at 8:59 am
RR–thank you for summing that up quite nicely.
For Jason Doty: “Many will not understand this and will say I’m too preachy. That’s okay. The Holy Spirit speaks through the Gospel plainly spoken and effectively calls all who will believe.”
So apparently, since this doesn’t speak to me, I’m not one of those who “will” believe. This is extremely circular logic and it’s also predestination (one and the same??). I don’t understand why Christians are using the tack of explaining their basic beliefs to us since most of us already know them. We didn’t grow up ignorant of Christianity–it’s the dominant religion. Most of us atheists were in one sect or another before we came out of religion. We already know about the cross bit. Saying it more slowly doesn’t mean it’s more effective.
Two more things. I noticed that what Nicholas posted about his parents/his experience seems a lot like euphoria from a drug. A mental state of excitement that leads into withdrawals (called “Satan” in his post) when they stop going around for the experience. This is not to insult Nicholas. But you could substitute the drug “ecstasy” there and see the same thing. What’s the difference?
The last thing is a slight pet peeve of mine. “Judeo-Christian” is a massive misnomer. The “Judeo” part is a completely separate religion that views itself as NOT lacking for not having the New Testament, “new” rules, etc. The Jews are not simply background, old religion for Christians to come from as the newer better religion. Yet, this is often how it’s used. You don’t take time off as Christians for the Jewish holdiays in your “Judeo” label. Stop throwing it around. It’s “Christian” plain and simple.
on April 20th, 2006 at 11:39 am
Muleski, you said this: “It wasn’t only the philosophy of the judeo-christian work ethic and lifestyle that made us great–It was also God’s blessing on a nation that honored Him! If as a nation we turn our backs on God, He will turn His back on us.”
Contemplator already addressed the “Judeo-Christian” moniker, so I’ll leave that alone. (Does anyone know when we first started seeing/hearing this combination on a regular basis? Seems it was fairly recently.)
Regarding the blessings of God on our nation. This is one of my own pet peeves. I want to know just when God got his American citizenship? Did Jesus wrap himself in the flag? More to the point: by claiming that God rewards and punishes NATIONS you turn Him into nothing more than a primitive tribal deity (which He is, of course…). Doesn’t the Christian religion teach that God judges individual human hearts and has personal relationships with each of them? Then how is it that He ignores the individuals in favor of manmade national boundaries? And what is this nonsense about rewards and punishments in THIS life? Isn’t the afterlife when we are to receive those by either going to heaven or hell?
on April 20th, 2006 at 11:40 am
Mueleski- I don’t think of the government as “believing in God”. Our government is made up of US citizens, including all kinds of beliefs. Because it is representing citizens of multiple faiths, allowing any of those religions to dictate laws and decisions that effect all of us is wrong. This is according to the constititution written by some of those God fearing men you mention.
“If as a nation we turn our backs on God, He will turn His back on us.”
So the rest of us should just go along with Christian influenced decisions regarding our country. We should assume that for the sake of our country and God’s blessing that ultimately you’re the one who is right about it? I wonder how you would feel about it if the government was mostly Jewish or Muslim. They believe in God. If they started allowing their beliefs to influence their decisions that effect you, would you think we were “turning our backs on God” since these choices may look different than the Christian faith dictates?
It is possible to do the “right” thing, to make choices based on basic human rights and to be moral, good human beings without Christianity. Most of us naturally strive to be this way. The basic tenets of most religions, not just Christianity, are based on these things.
“As our government begins to embrace and protect lifestyles that go against the judeo-christian ethic…”
What did I miss? What are those lifestyles our government is embracing and protecting lately? Murderers and thieves? Or are we talking about people of other faiths, gay rights and womens rights?
So we are being punished by God now finally, for allowing non Christian ethics oriented lifestyles?
Could it possibly be that our administration has simply made a handful of poor choices that slid us out onto that thin ice?
on April 20th, 2006 at 12:08 pm
Yes, I agree I shouldn’t have said Atheists in general but some feel threatend. My apologizes. Christian=belief in God, Atheist=belief in no god. So how come atheism isnt considered a religion,RR? Everyone has a religion/belief. A country doesnt get weaker bc of enemies from the outside, but inside,from us. Rome didnt collapse bc of their enemies, but bc of what went on inside. And the samething is happening to America.As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he, a man is literally what he thinks, his character being the complete sum of all his thoughts. It’s not about who’s president or not, its about us the people. I read some atheist saying:atheists are most tolerant overall of peoples right to believe what they choose. That is what is getting America in trouble and corrupt and dont have a moral stance in things. As the more Christian-dominated consensus from the past weakens, the majority of people adopt two impoverish values: 1)Personal peace=just to be left alone, not to be troubled by the troubles of other people, to live one’s life with minimal possibilities of being personally disturbed. and Affluence=a life made up of things, things, and more things, a success judged by a level of material abundance.You cant deny that our forefather’s had a religious foundation and the people around them also had it too. But now in our time its dissapearing rapidly. Oh I understand why atheists dont believe in a God, like me who wants to be told how to live and what rules to follow from someone who i cant see or touch. But i guess thats where faith comes in. Just like having faith that there is no God. Yes some christians go the wrong way at telling people their beliefs, like you going to hell if you dont beleive. But theres always some people who ruin something, but thats in every category, including every other religion. The important thing is to find the right person to have a good meaningful conversation. Like me i sometimes judge a group of people bc of one bad incident but i know i shouldnt do that. This is a cool post, i like talking about religion and what others believe, its a learning experience. For people whos atheists can i suggest a book? Francis Schaeffer: How should we then live? its about the rise and decline of western thought and culture. for people who enjoy reading history. If you guys have any reading suggestions please tell me. I enjoy reading different topics. thanks.
on April 20th, 2006 at 12:46 pm
Anonymous, you said: So how come atheism isnt considered a religion,RR? Everyone has a religion/belief.
“Belief” is not synonymous with “religion”. And, no, not everyone has a religion. I don’t. Let me ask you… does the fact that I don’t have any belief in alien abductions make that my religion? No? What about my lack of belief in invisible penquins? Then why would a lack of a belief in a god make that a religion?
It looks to me like you are caught in a web of dualism. There are more than two choices, more than “Christian values” or rampant immorality, more than altruism or self-centered greed. Humans are more complex than that. Life is not black and white.
People have been complaining about the downfall of society since words were first written, and most likely since stories were first told. It seems to be human nature to believe that only in an earlier time, either in recent decades or previous centuries, or eons ago, were morals intact and society was strong. People have always been people. We are no different now.
on April 20th, 2006 at 1:55 pm
The only thing that unites atheists is a non belief in a god. That’s it. We have no secret rituals, no core issues we vote on as a block…unless that was covered in the So You Want To Be An Atheist handbook, and I didn’t read that part. It’s just a label that comes in handy sometimes.
I’m sick of hearing about how society is being ruined and how we have to “go back” to some mythical time when everyone thought and acted with one purpose. Didn’t exist. And what time period would THAT be?? When we had no rights for women and blacks were slaves and we imported Chinese people as indentured servants??
Michelle and Sandra, awesome coverage of topics!
on April 20th, 2006 at 2:15 pm
“Christians are either fools for believing or they are right, period!”
I’m glad someone is willing to admit this. I submit myself and every other Christian to be held up to this scrutiny: If Jesus is what he says he is, every non-Christian is living in separation from God. If he is not, then every Christian is a complete idiot. There is no middle ground. I find it actually refreshing to hear comments from atheists, because they don’t feel the need to soften the blow with some fuzzy inclusivity, much like pantheists and pagans that I normally dialogue with. Scrutinize Jesus’ words: he didn’t leave room for “many paths to one destination.” So either I’m living a lie and it’s not OK, or everyone else is.
on April 20th, 2006 at 2:27 pm
“It is simply that the church does not belong in our government. A government without the church is not an athiest government. It is a government that allows everyone to practice their own faith.”
Cassandra is absolutely right. I think if American Christians got serious about becoming like Jesus, you would see a lot less of Pat Robertson-esque heavy-handed religion peddling, and more humble service. The Bible dictates the church’s role in gov’t, and it’s not to infiltrate it and homogenize everyone’s morality. It’s be a prophetic voice of correction and moral scrutiny for its policies and motives, and an example of service and love– from the outside.
Specifically concerning the issue of prayer in schools: As a Christian, I definitely do not want faith/religion/offical prayer in my kids’ public schools. I don’t really understand why any Christian would. God knows what the administration would try to fill their little heads with. That kind of training is the parents’ prerogative only.
on April 20th, 2006 at 2:31 pm
I didn’t mean for that last comment to be Anonymous. That was me.
on April 20th, 2006 at 2:39 pm
1. What is your religion? I was agnostic for many years, then Episcopalian, now… I just don’t know any more. Probably atheist, but I’m interested in the Ethical Culture society. Anyone familiar with them?
2. How long have you claimed these beliefs? Agnostic - first 20-odd years of my life, Episcopalian - 8 years, unsure - last 3 months
3. Short explanation of how you arrived at these beliefs. My immediate family is agnostic but I was sent to Catholic school for a myriad of reasons (including the fact that it was the least physically dangerous school compared to local public schools). I HATED Catholic school and avoided religion in general for years. In my late 20’s I felt pulled toward the Episcopal church out of a need for community, belonging, and a hope that my persistant anxiety and depression could be salved (no, not ’saved’ - salved) if I could only have faith in a god. I truly wanted to believe, even though in my heard I simply didn’t. “Act as if ye have faith, and faith will be granted ye” - I’m unsure of the origin of this quote, but this is what I mean when I say I wanted to believe. I respected the local Episcopal church and its’ open-minded approach to other beliefs, and I loved that the majority of the cogregation were thoughtful, highly educated people. But as the years have gone on, and I have read more and more of the bible and tried to ‘act as if’ - praying, studying scripture, taking bible study and theology classes - I have to admit that I just don’t believe it. Any of it. It simply makes no sense to me. I feel very very sad about this, not because I feel like I’ve lost god, but rather that I have to give up on a fairy tale and try to tackle my issues and problems without some kind of supernatural help. And since so many of my own attempts have failed, I feel at a loss as to what I can do to truly ’save’ myself.
4. What do you do for a living?
I am a college administrator and a mother of 2 small children.
5. Education level, if you are interested in sharing. College.
6. Anything else relevent to the conversation that you think might be important. I find this ‘game’, as well as the rather heated discussions over at the ‘war on easter’, to be very interesting - although sometimes infuriating. One thing that has always angered me is intolerance, especially when it is coupled with arrogance and sense of mean-spiritedness (is that a word? hmmm…) I must say that the whole ‘war on easter’ thing strikes me that way… then again, I kind of see their point… as you can see, I’m kind of going through a ‘thing’ right now.
on April 20th, 2006 at 2:43 pm
Wow, now that I posted that I see it’s freakin’ long - sorry about that!
on April 20th, 2006 at 2:59 pm
Anonymous-you said:
“Oh I understand why atheists dont believe in a God, like me who wants to be told how to live and what rules to follow from someone who i cant see or touch.”
I think you would be v e r y hard pressed to find and Athiest reason for not believing is that they don’t want to be told what rules to follow by someone they can’t see or touch.
I won’t presume to speak for all athiests, but as for myself, I don’t NEED to be told how to behave. I know what the difference between right and wrong is. I don’t believe in God because it has not been proven to me scientifically. I don’t subscribe to the notion that because it is written in the bible that it simply is.
Cassandra-It looks like your spring break has allowed your blog to be hijacked! Thanks for hosting this stimulating and thought provoking conversation.
on April 20th, 2006 at 2:59 pm
Can you lookup those two definitions?
why does someones belief in a God is their religion? But someone without belief in a God is not a religion?
If you lookup religion I guess depends on ur dictionary the 4th definition is= 4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
I think that fits with everything we are arguing about. Michelle I’m not saying your wrong just tryin to do the samthing as u.
You can say that ur 100% certain that theres more than one or even 2 choices? What if life is really meant to be white and black, i’m talking about important stuff like what we’re talkin about. But we humans decided to add green, purple, gray, yellow etc? What u said about me being dualism is that a fair statement? Bc like me i know that ur not 100% sure. its not like we’re talking about the sun or clouds that u and I can see. Yes people have been talkin about the downfall of humans, but the most important thing to see and study is WHY they fell.and im sure if u study carefully theres always a similar story. I do respect your thoughts and feelings toward this issue.
on April 20th, 2006 at 4:52 pm
Rome didnt collapse bc of their enemies, but bc of what went on inside.
Interestingly enough Rome’s collapse seemed to coincide with Constatine’s adoption of Christianity. Something to think about…hmmm
on April 20th, 2006 at 4:53 pm
Rome didnt collapse bc of their enemies, but bc of what went on inside.
Interestingly enough Rome’s collapse seemed to coincide with Constatine’s adoption of Christianity. Something to think about…hmmm
**this didn’t show up the first time I posted it, so if it becomes a double post I apologize.
on April 20th, 2006 at 5:24 pm
anonymous said: “If you lookup religion I guess depends on ur dictionary the 4th definition is= 4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
I think that fits with everything we are arguing about.”
You really really want to think about this one. Because if you choose to accept this definition, it means that my devotion to the cause of fighting illiteracy and my love of baby whales are both two religions. And anything else anyone is passionate about becomes a religion. So I guess the Democratic and Republican parties are now both religions. If I “believe” I’m going to get up in the morning after going to sleep, is that a religion? I’m not arguing that you shouldn’t look in the dictionary, but it’s the 4th definition for a reason. You’re trying to argue that philisophical beliefs are religions. They’re not. That would make the belief in free markets a religion. Surely you don’t think all those other things are religions, too?
“What if life is really meant to be white and black, i’m talking about important stuff like what we’re talkin about. But we humans decided to add green, purple, gray, yellow etc?”
This is gobbledygook. If life was really “meant” to be black and white, but humans somehow added more colors to the scheme, what does that say about God? Is he so puny he can’t make it clear? And before you holler “It IS clear to me,” remember you are subscribing to a religion with an enormous amount of sects to it that don’t believe the same way. So why should we think you in particular understand it when there are hundreds of thousands of churches with their own particular take on it?
“Bc like me i know that ur not 100% sure. its not like we’re talking about the sun or clouds that u and I can see.”
This in no way implies that we should believe in God just “because”. We can’t see gravity. But we know it’s there. We can determine when it works and when it doesn’t. You can’t see atoms, or electrons, or particles in space or black holes, but we know they’re there. They are scientifically demonstrable. I can’t see God. God makes no sense. His book is filled with contradictions. His followers can’t get it straight and make a hell of a lot of “operator errors” that they get to chalk up to “human infallibility”. God is not scientifically demonstrable. And don’t DARE throw up Intelligent Design, there’s not one shred of evidence for it.
on April 20th, 2006 at 5:25 pm
Anna–my sister is going through the same thing after being raised fundamentalist. The only sure thing I can tell you is to keep asking, keep reading, keep questioning and keep thinking, and you will become less uncomfortable and more sure in what you are after. Life makes a lot more sense as an atheist :) .
on April 20th, 2006 at 5:38 pm
Cassandra-It looks like your spring break has allowed your blog to be hijacked! Thanks for hosting this stimulating and thought provoking conversation.
No shit!! LOL, I honestly wasn’t prepared for all of the comments!! There’s no way I can keep up with this, so I apologize for starting it and then bailing! My inbox is completely flooded with notices of comments.
But there is a lot of great conversation going on. I’m thrilled.
:-)
on April 20th, 2006 at 6:04 pm
you cant prove there is no God and cant prove there is a God. so where does that leave us? but the one thing is for sure, we will one day findout when we die but the sad thing is it would be too late to change. we can argue about this till our face is purple and it wouldnt get us anywhere.
on April 20th, 2006 at 6:31 pm
Aaron–so you’re saying we shouldn’t bother talking about things? That seems to be a rather defeatist attitude. And many atheists would disagree about not being able to prove God doens’t exist. I think instead, it’s more about what a person is willing to listen to and look at, or will they write off evidence as being “Devils work”.
And by the way, if you die and it turns out to be what atheists think, I guess you’ll never know the difference, huh?
on April 20th, 2006 at 6:40 pm
Contemplator, yeah those are some good points. I don’t think about this stuff too much, just said what came to my head at the moment. I dont have the time to study all this stuff. But its cool that u have the drive to think about it and write about what i said:)I understand why u believe those things and its cool, at least u believe in something and think about it. yeah i dont know what to think about this stuff.i just like to get people heated up a little haha
on April 20th, 2006 at 7:13 pm
There’s something key that I think should be pointed out here.
If you say, “This is what I believe, and nothing could change it, period,” then there’s really nothing that can be discussed. I’m not trying to put anyone down — it’s just a simple fact. Once someone says that, two things can happen. One is that people get angry, and the other is that people shrug it off and go their separate ways. This is a major reason that discussions involving religion often turn nasty.
However, if people are really curious about exploring the basis of their faith, then some interesting conversation can occur. I applaud everyone for keeping this relatively civil so far, bu t it’s converging pretty quickly on an atheism vs. religion debate, albeit with some rather interesting sidetracks.
Thus, if you see someone espsousing a sure faith which can be neither considered nor refuted, I will advise you (and oh, if I always followed my own advice…) to steer clear of entering a discussion along that line.
on April 20th, 2006 at 8:27 pm
Contemplator,
I only stated the truth. If it appears to be circular logic, I apologize. However, your logic is also circular. You would say, “I don’t believe in God because there is no evidence.” Then, you would say in the next breath, “I do not believe any evidence because I know there is no God.” The prophet Isaiah was told by God to tell the children of Israel, “Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive… lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.” This is the same reason why Jesus spoke in parables because those who would understand would follow Him, but to those who did not, the truth would not be revealed. If this unbelief describes you, then your ears are deaf because you want them to be so. “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
on April 20th, 2006 at 9:32 pm
Contemplator,
Life makes alot more sense as an atheist? We die and go nowhere? Where is the purpose?
on April 20th, 2006 at 9:53 pm
Life makes alot more sense as an atheist? We die and go nowhere? Where is the purpose?
The purpose is right here in front of us. Our family, our friends, our planet.
My children are my purpose.
What is the purpose of a plant (other than providing oxygen)? To die and go nowhere? Or to add beauty to life here and now. We should all strive for the same: to be as beautiful as a flower while we are in bloom, and not to live for after we wilt and die.
Hmmmm…. I’ve honestly never really thought things like that before. It just kind of flowed out of my fingers. I like it. I have the yellow double tulips in my front yard on my mind. :-)
on April 20th, 2006 at 10:07 pm
Jason Doty said: “I only stated the truth.”
As you think you see it. I don’t find it to be true.
“you would say in the next breath, “I do not believe any evidence because I know there is no God.”
I haven’t said this. No other atheist here has either. I think some of us are waiting with baited breath for your “evidence”. You haven’t put any out. You’ve quoted scripture, which I already know. I highly doubt you credit any evolutionary evidence. Isn’t this the pot calling the kettle black?
“This is the same reason why Jesus spoke in parables because those who would understand would follow Him, but to those who did not, the truth would not be revealed.”
So, those who are predestined to figure out Jesus’ riddles are safe, and the other ones are kept in the dark? Sounds great. And here I thought he came for everybody’s sins. Guess that’s one more contradiction to deal with.
Kerry Davis: Yes. It makes a lot more sense than believing that some thundering murderous incest permitting Old Testament god holds the keys to some illusory maybe you’ll get it maybe you won’t afterlife.
Yes. You die and go now