GooseHenry: Noell said something that you didn’t answer (intentionally or unintentionall — it doesn’t matter to me) and that is:

Pretend for just a moment there’s no God. Pretend that there is no God’s image in other people.

Now, do you do whatever you want, harm people, do what you (outside of this exercise) would consider amoral things? Is God the only reason that you have a sense of ethics or morality?

Noell: One key point that you missed about the advantages of altruistic behavior is that historically, the humans around one’s self had a high likelihood of carrying the same genes. This is even true today, though less essential to survival. Since the genes are more likely to stay around if they help themselves in the carriers around them, altruistic genes could in some circumstances benefit themselves.

GooseHenry: Humans are not special in this. Other animals, including chimps, act the same way. Given the church’s position on the souls of animals, this cannot be because they see God’s image in each other, right? Then, why do they help each other? Why do they tend not to harm those around them to their own immediate advantage?

You and I have approximately 70 years that we can either endure or enjoy. That is a lot of time to endure if it is painful.

I value the time I have to find as much joy as possible, and also to pass a joyful life to my children. One of the ways for me to do that is contribute in whatever ways I can to make the world a better and joyful place.

I have never experimented with drugs and never will because I believe it will hamper my ability to enjoy life and increase the potential of my hurting others.

I would never steal something that belonged to someone else, even if I knew I wouldn’t get caught, because I would be contributing to a painful world, rather than a joyful one.

I want a joyful world for myself and for my children. Maybe Natural Selection gave me that drive. That’s ok by me.

While animals are a more reasonable comparison to humans than volcanoes, and in fact, humans are part of the animal kingdom, there is still one major difference. (Yes, I see evolution as the most reliable answer we’ve found about our origins and the foundation on which to build unless we ever find an inconsistency. In that case it would be necessary to adjust our understanding. For now, new findings so far always support evolution. But that is another subject).

The difference between humans and other animals is that they don’t have the ability to reason and they don’t have much capacity for empathy. You cannot make a moral judgement on a creature who is only able to act out of impulses and instinct.

Earlier humans adapted to their environment in a way that nature selected altruistic tendencies. Our reason and empathy developed. There are many theories of how humans became the way we are, under the semi-science of Evolutionary Psychology. It is fascinating.

The fact is, it DOES matter to each of us that others feel pain for two reasons:
1) The first is selfish and self-preserving: it is better for me if I treat you well because you are more likely to treat me well.
2) The second is more noble: I know what it is to feel pain. I experience it to an extent when I see others feeling it. It drives me to treat others with compassion.

Perhaps second reason evolved as a way to climb the social ladder, thus increasing my survival and the survival of my genes. If so, what does that matter? The wonderful thing is that we have that capability. The important thing is that we encourage it in ourselves, in our children, and in others.

1st of all, i am not accusing you of any immorality. I think we are aware of morals whichever belief/non-belief we adhere to.

But, given evolution (which i assume you see as the truth) there is no room for morals or instrisic value of life.

Do we accuse an animal killing another animal for being evil? Or is it just its nature?

Awareness is nothing but chemical processes…and given that we are just a link in evolution we too are just carrying out our functions. Which are neither wrong nor right, they just are.

Why should it matter if other people feel pain? As long as its not happening to me…?

Acting morally comes naturally for most people.

The question is wh does it?

And here is my answer - we all see Gods likeness in our fellow humans.

NOTE: i’ve no doubt that you are a moral, caring person.

Christians and others like you want to think that it is impossible to have morality without a god so that you can continue to assert that religion is necessary.

You cannot compare volcanoes to humans. Volcanos have no awareness. Humans do. More importantly, humans have an awareness of other live creatures and their ability to feel pain.

I do not act morally because I think there’s a god watching my actions, waiting to make a judgement upon me. I act morally because I hate the idea of hurting someone else. I am sure that is the very same reason YOU make moral choices. If not, I am sorry for you.

Who cares if we are made of matter and energy? The fact still remains that I am aware of you and you are aware of me. I know that you feel pain. I know what pain feels like. I do not want to cause you pain. That is true morality.

It is such a simple concept, but religious people never seen to get it. Of course, I think they don’t want to get it.

Since you are an atheist without belief in gods/supernatural, everything around is just energy and matter. It cannot be anything else.

Energy and matter are amoral. An earthquake is not evil when it turns a village upside down. A terrible tragedy, yes, but it cannot be accused of making a choice to be evil.

Since humans are a natural link in, and come from, nature (according to you) neither can we be evil/good. We just are.

Empathy requires seeing some sort of value in another being. Energy and matter are not more valuable than the chemical substances and processes that they are made up of.

Therefore, seeing pain in another human should affect us as much as when seeing a mousetrap slam shut. Given an atheist worldview that is.

I am an agnostic who does not believe in gods. I’m agnostic/atheist, or both. Whatever.

Anyway, I DO believe in right and wrong, good and evil. Not because there is some metaphysical force in the universe, but because we feel and recognize that others feel pain.

The unique thing about humans is that we have the capacity to reason and to have empathy. This is the reason for morality and ethics. We recognize the pain we cause in other people by our actions.

Causing other people unnecessary pain is wrong/evil.

Obviously there are tricky situations where our only options are to cause pain in others, and in that case we must choose the option that will bring the least amount of pain to others, or to the world as a whole.

I have been meaning to write my own post on this, but I guess I’m leaking it here first.

A question:

Do you think the nazi regime in Germany during the 30’s and 40’s was wrong?

You’re right. Like I said at the end of my post, I was just brainstorming. “To each his own” has always been my way of thinking. I guess I’m just exploring the ideas of tolerance, intolerance and relativism.

This discussion could go in circles forever, huh? :-)

I think abortion is an atrocity. And i don’t think homosexuality is right. That is why i won’t condone any of it.

But who am i to judge people? I’ve made my fair share of errors and will continue to do so.

“:-* Thanks, Mr. Thou Shall Not Judge. I actually don’t hate Christians. I can honestly say that I don’t “hate” anyone, but Bush is getting up there…”

Sorry for lashing out.

“Maybe I am tolerant of the person, but not tolerant of the beliefs?”

Isn’t that intolerance?

I’t can’t be said that i do not “tolerate” premarital sex etc. I simply think it is wrong. We must have a right to think differently about things.

“You’re absolutely right. Who am I (or more importantly, who are WE) to say what is going on is wrong? I never said that I thought what was going on was wrong.”

Well if morality is relative then this whole discussion becomes pointless. It then boils down to “abortion is right for me but not for them”. No one can question the other one. Each to his own…